Should you help?

[Chuck]

Good post DM. stay safe out there.

Despite this being a busy road in central London, no member of the public actually physically tries to take the men on. This was not because they did not know what their legal powers were, it is because they were too scared to

because we have been dumbed down to "not get involved, don't stand up for fear of making a FUSS, and of course because the media and police crucify anyone who DOES stand up to criminals in most cases. e have been conditioned to accept being victims.

As for carrying a firearm, I am all for it even though the crazy "streets running with blood / wee Jeannie" stories are just scaremongering by those who would choose NOT to carry. Everyone should have the right to choose, and be able to, provided they took regular and on-going training. The average person CAN be trained to levels above those required by law enforcement. I am sure everyone on here is that talented.

Oh and just to add some balance to the discussion, here's what happens when it goes badly wrong through a combination of circumstances...like lack of proper training for that type of encounter. Manuals alone do NOT impart those skills.

http://www.rr.com/news/topic/article/rr ... g_break-in

[waterford103]

i think you can use 'reasonable' force unfortunatley you have to make that decision in milliseconds whereas the sniveling gutter press would have the luxury of all the time they wanted , just the same as a court of law would have and rest assured that is where you would end up defending yourself!

snivelling gutter press -- couldn't have said it better --- like bloody vultures they are --- still hovering over the scene ,wringing out the last bit of agony, using blow-hard "experts" to self proclaim.

[paxtond]

Driving past would I draw my rifle maybe, would I shoot it no way. Could you imagine the problems if you accidentally sent a .308 in to a innocent either by a missed shot or ricochet.

If we had CC laws then it would be a different story. American citizen foil attacks every week you don't don't see it in main stream media as it doesn't play in to the hands of the gun grabbers

[HALODIN]

If you see something like this and your mind isn't racing to find a way to help them, then you're not human. I'm not sure how far I would have gone if I was there, it depends on so many variables, but if it was a friend or my family I would certainly have done enough.

[Mike357]

If I was unarmed, having seen what these guys did and knowing one was carrying a gun then I probably wouldn't have done anything. The poor soldier was probably already dead and the attackers weren't threatening anybody else or fleeing the scene.

If I had a stab vest, baton and CS Spray I'd be a lot more keen to get involved. If I had a Glock and a MP5 I'd wade right in! It's all relative.

[Sim G]

The reason that this argument gets Police Officers backs up is this.We do not have a Job, we joined the Police because we saw it as a calling, something that deep down inside we felt we had to do. Some how over the years being a Police Constable has gone from being a vocation to being a Job in the publics eyes and thus the public care little for us.

.....

About time the F-ing public made it's mind up and decided what they do want because at the moment boys and girls I don't think Joe Public has any understanding of how battered and bruised the average Constable is feeling.

.....

Thank you.

[Sandgroper]

The reason that this argument gets Police Officers backs up is this.We do not have a Job, we joined the Police because we saw it as a calling, something that deep down inside we felt we had to do. Some how over the years being a Police Constable has gone from being a vocation to being a Job in the publics eyes and thus the public care little for us.

.....

About time the F-ing public made it's mind up and decided what they do want because at the moment boys and girls I don't think Joe Public has any understanding of how battered and bruised the average Constable is feeling.

.....

Thank you.

Well said.

[NoEntry]

Regards where you stand in England and Wales using self defence, please see this post which gives you a link you should read - at least twice.

http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=12578

I am now going to have a rant. I have been bitting my tongue and it was not appropriate to put it on a post that started out as paying respects to the dead soldier - who by the way I hope turns out to be a Muslim or black etc. That will mess with a few peoples minds.

Whenever Police Officers complain about the working conditions or pay we hear people come back at us:
"You are no different to us, shut up and be grateful you have a job, we also have to work shifts, we have to get up early, get home late, work night shifts, work weekends, don't see our children for days at a time, miss important dates due to work loads, have to work Christmas, get no extra pay" etc etc

The reason that this argument gets Police Officers backs up is this.We do not have a Job, we joined the Police because we saw it as a calling, something that deep down inside we felt we had to do. Some how over the years being a Police Constable has gone from being a vocation to being a Job in the publics eyes and thus the public care little for us.

Mostly we can swallow the arguments that the average worker is no different to the roll of Constable, but where we do get annoyed is when the public neither recognises or accepts that there is any more danger in our job than their own.
Yesterday I watched images taken by the average passer by on their media devices of these two men doing their atrocious act. People stand back and watch, To my knowledge only one person had the courage to give first aid and engage the subjects. It has not gone unnoticed that she is a volunteer Scout leader, someone else who gives something back to society. At one point whilst she is talking to one of the men a woman actually walks past them with her shopping trolley.
Despite this being a busy road in central London, no member of the public actually physically tries to take the men on. This was not because they did not know what their legal powers were, it is because they were too scared to and they knew the Police would be along soon.
Well the Constables who arrived do not have the option of standing around doing nothing, that is a luxury for those who whinge and whine about us using too much force, not being civil during a riot etc. The unarmed Officers stood within danger distance of the men and put themselves between them and the public until the Armed Officers arrived and responded to what they were confronted with. The first Officers got there within 10 minutes, the armed Officers got there under 10 minutes from being requested by the control room. Both driving in heavy traffic in demanding circumstances to get there, but of course the public don't care about that when the Police have a crash or injure/kill someone on the way to a call. And of course they should not have all that gear, should not have bullet proof vests, should not have powerfully vehicles. Should not be allowed to snoop on suspected terrorists, monitor groups, read forums etc.

About time the F-ing public made it's mind up and decided what they do want because at the moment boys and girls I don't think Joe Public has any understanding of how battered and bruised the average Constable is feeling.

Rant Over, I am now going to Cadets where I volunteer as a leader 2 nights a week and many weekends.

DM

Exactly M8....well said.

Mike

[JS569]

DM- In no way was I criticizing the police for their actions or response times, the 20mins quoted was in relation to the information i had read. Even then to get across London from wherever they were at the time is quite impressive. In fact I read later the response time is even less from when the actual request for A.R officers was made somewhere in the region of 10mins (potentially less).

I will always be the first to support the police, as more often than not they are painted in bad light (unfairly usually) when they've done the best possible job and with any event people always say you could of done more. It's very easy to say that from your arm chair but when you are on the ground you only have a matter of seconds to make a decision.

[Oddbod]

I've just spent two weeks & a lot of ammunition bringing my handgun skills back to where they should be.

I know what I would have done given the means.

And yes, I have thought through the moral, psychological & legal repercussions.