Bisley Open Day September 2013

[Ginger]

Does anyone know what happened today, Meville was empty

[happycallis]

It was fairly busy down there. I don't think there were as many people as there was in may.

[Ginger]

when I popped it only half of it was in use

[Maggot]

Four...FFFF...Four....

Well, what a day.

Oddly the highlight of my day was the 30BR inert Deano gave me. I cant help it, I am a cartridge tart!!

(while we are at it, Dave, thanks for the 2 you gave me as well, sorry I never called back, it was a busy evening and I sensed all was not well in the shed so I let you be mate)

Nice to see Kenny, Barry and Mick W as well.

It never ceases to amaze me how generous shooting folk are with their time and effort, and in many cases material.

I guess one or two one here (those who feel that F class is cheque book shooting) will be heartened to know that, the only difference between our stand and the match rifle stand was the targets.

We used to get that years back with model helicopters....”Cheque book modelling!! We never used Gyros in my day”....no, but then you rarely got out of the hover and aerobatics were the stuff of dreams...or happened by accident!!

We basically had a bunch of (for the most part) “Tired” target rifles on a collection of cloned Harris and tracker bipods with mill surp ammo.

I watched a couple with the Harris clones with the legs sloping suspiciously forward....which meant they were not being leaned into...oh dear. I was just waiting for the whole lot to collapse...a lapse there in hindsight on my part as an RCO.

So I guess many years ago that would have been good for F/TR, but it in no way represents the sport as it is now (apparently the fastest growing arm of the sport).

I am afraid that showing F and F/TR in its true light will be hard, I am not sure if half the punters went away knowing what they had just been trying to do, or how we usually achieve it, but I hope they enjoyed it.

I thought the idea of giving us TR plot sheets and putting up F class targets was twee....took a while to sink in (My stupidity again eh ?)

You cannot really blame the NRA. The target rifle still seems king, and F is a specialist part of the target shooting movement as a whole, and sadly one of the most expensive if you want to remain competitive.

I think the only way forward for future open days (if we want an honest F class representation) would be to either have a static display of F open and F/TR rifles, or for the trade/one of the various sporting fund raisers to chip in. Is this realistic?...I don’t know.

It would be great to be able to just run 4 rifles, possibly 4 savages, 2 F/TR and 2 Open and bill those (and those only) as F class. Understandably there may be issues with factory ammo, and they would have to be held somewhere and well looked after.

Or we are honest and say that they are “S” class, and just display F open and TR rifles....but then is S class officially recognised by the NRA and the F class UK?

I did notice quite a lot of well aimed and knowledgeable advice being given by coaches, but this seemed at odds with the ethos of the NRA sausage machine.

I get that the point was to let as many people try F class as they could, but unless I had an inkling about what F was all about, I would not have gone away much the wiser, and certainly not about to part with the thick end of 4K on a new rig or join an F class club.

Maybe, if you had a specific F setup, you channel the experienced shooters to these and capitalise on what they know...elitist again though and not what shooting is about. If however you were aiming the stand at those who knew a bit, and were limited to 4 rifles, you could build on any experience they had.

This may all seem pretty whiny and selfish, but we were supposed to be profiling “My/Our” part of the shooting movement. We saw it coming though.

Personally, I was at odds as to whether we should even have our rifles about because, to my mind, it was a bit like dangling a carrot the punters could not have.

One possible idea would be to have some sort of display board by the queue area showing the targets, scoring system, differences between classes, history of F and the rifles so they would know what they were looking at.

Give some data on the rounds and what they go through en route to the target, the fact that on most afternoons, the rifle will physically be pointing between the targets and up in the air to actually hit the thing.

I could produce that.

As regards the poor markers....well the NRA let them break for lunch on any other day, and they did not stop yesterday.

I think they need splitting morning and afternoon, potentially paying a bit more (if they produce) and they need to physically be up to the task....and be asked to turn any mobiles off!!

I would not fancy standing there watching a target all day. Don’t forget that you cannot really just look for splash on stickeldown as much of it cannot be seen.

At one point the humidity (post downpour) made for some pretty spectacular swirl or traces for near enough the full flight of the bullet.

I tried humouring them (the markers), it seemed to work, but they were as much a part of the event/team as we were and were partly responsible for the slow turn over.

It was obvious by the relief from the head marker (and the increase in marking speed) when I started standing targets down that they were on their beam ends!!

I actually think that some were using me as an indicator (Via a message 4) rather than actually watching the targets. I get that, it’s wrong, but I don’t blame them.

As regards those that turned up to help, again, salt of the earth (particularly Sam the border collie) and the like of which you only find amongst the most passionate about their sport.

The girls ran the queue (Riot control) beautifully, the coaches did a great job (apart from me...again...stupid is as stupid does) and the kids made great slaves.

I only managed to RO because “Gerald” kindly got me a nice vest with “NRA RCO” writ large on it...just in case my lack of intelligence left any doubt.

So was it a successful day? I think so, even if it did not really reflect the current state of F class.
Well everyone worked hard, I still hurt and no doubt everyone else does.

Tim did a great job of organising things, and kept reasonably well humoured throughout the day given the pressure he was under. Although sadly Tim, mortars are not permitted on Stickledown so the markers live to mark another day!!

I hope those we entertained were happy (and not too offended by the odd bit of colourful language...I revert to “Squaddinese when biffed”) so in that way it was a success.

We got through approx 1300 rounds (GGG/RUAG mix). God only knows how many were used re-zeroing the rifles, a couple of rifles were returned and some new ones appeared throughout the day with surgery taking part on the firing point.

Would I do it again....trick question. As I am clearly stupid, well yes of course I would....you have to don’t you?

The bottom line is that everyone tried bloody hard to make someone’s day, and when I think my only ambition when starting shooting again was to shoot a bolt action rifle at 1000yds....yes, they got what they paid for.

Lets face it, 1000 is a challenge, there are precious few 1000 yard opportunities for us, let alone people wanting to just have a try, so in that respect, it’s a valid activity.

What I would do is lose the F class label, put on a decent tented static display covering F class, Tactical (An AI, Unique alpine ONO) match, ammo, reloading etc) and call the firing point experience long range shooting.

This way they get what they are paying for (long range plinking with an experienced shot) and get to see the various disciplines. They will be informed as well as entertained and not just mystified. This is something we can do more or less FOC. I would also provide some spotting scopes and helpers engaging with those waiting behind the firing points to give them some sort of scripted brief, this would cut down on the time taken by the coaches and possibly allow them to see the effects of the wind on the bullets first hand.

Yours, maggot four

[Mr_Logic]

Maggot, I don't agree with your solution for next year, but good write up.

the NRA rifles, ruag ammo (or similar) and TR targets will give someone a good idea, and shooting at 1k is popular just because it is 1k.

with ruag ammo and the TR target, I think accuracy of gun matches target. We still shoot on TR targets as our club is TR mainly. It's still fun, so would work at an open day.

we need more guys helping you with Friday zeroing next year though - ideally one or two rifles per shooter. That and decent ammo, and we can do a good display.

[Tomo]

I took a non-shooting friend of mine to the open day yesterday and we both had a great time.

He hadn't shot anything but shotguns before and so really enjoyed almost every discipline we tried (rather annoyingly he out shot me for most of the day too!). Highlights for me were shooting McQueens for the first time, being assaulted by a Brown Bess rifle and also getting a chance to shoot a Lee Enfield no4 (my variation will be going in shortly!).

I was a little disappointed with the match and FT/R shooting to be honest; I was keen to try it out having only ever shot @ 600 yards on century. It didn't feel like I was shooting FT/R though, just a .308 with milsurp ammo at a longer distance. We went twice, one in the morning (hardly any wind - did okay) and then again in the afternoon when the wind had picked up and message 4's were flying! I know the idea is to encourage new shooters, and to be fair my mate loved it, he wasn't sure he was going to even hit the target at that range and so when he got a V bull with his last shot he was practically dancing down the range! Idea: if you are going to split the queue into "novice shooters" and "experienced shooters" then maybe (for a higher price/fewer rounds) you could have an FT/rifle with hand loads on one of the firing points?

Over-all it was an enjoyable day; thanks to everyone that volunteered to make it such a success.

My friend was checking out local rifle clubs online when he got home - much to his wifes distress!!

[knewmans]

I was there yesterday with my wife and daughter. As ever the coaches were great and we all had our fun. On the F Class I went down the 'competent' queue smoothly and enjoyed myself. My wife and daughter gave up. The novice queue had moved hardly at all after an hour and they were looking at another hour. It may have been the time we were there - around 1pm. It was a shame, my daughter had been to a previous open day and, coached by ENS, really enjoyed the long range shooting and wanted another go. My wife has no experience of shooting and I felt she would have enjoyed it. I don't know why the queues were moving more slowly than previously.

Its a difficult one. The coaches and everyone supporting the points work incredibly hard and are really enthusiastic. It will always take time to give a good experience at 1000 yards but don't underestimate the importance of the 1000yd shoot to the open day. It has to be there.

I started shooting after an open day. Didn't know what F class was but 1000 yards was the experience where it all clicked. You had 10 minutes with someone who could get you shooting in the black over half a mile away - wow. The technicalities really don't matter to the average open day punter but the long range does. Its a particularly satisfying moment that you want to repeat. Hitting the v-bull at 1000yards is normal to all of the coaches but can look a bit like witchcraft from the outside, its special.

[Maggot]

Maggot, I don't agree with your solution for next year, but good write up.

the NRA rifles, ruag ammo (or similar) and TR targets will give someone a good idea, and shooting at 1k is popular just because it is 1k.

with ruag ammo and the TR target, I think accuracy of gun matches target. We still shoot on TR targets as our club is TR mainly. It's still fun, so would work at an open day.

we need more guys helping you with Friday zeroing next year though - ideally one or two rifles per shooter. That and decent ammo, and we can do a good display.

Which part...the F class rifles/targets are a none starter really if we are honest.

We were told we would be getting TR targets as well, not sure where the TR targets came from.

That was just a thought (re a specialist slot and rifles) and it wont happen.

That's more or less what I said otherwise Tom. The problem with the zeroing was manifold.

You could have stopped there all day and it would not have made much difference.

We only had a target AM. Nothing we took on the zero range cut it at 1000, and had it been down to the powers we would have simply been presented with collimated rifles.

We had to drop these on ave 3-4MOA, one example being some 8 MOA low...which was nice.

We had 100 rds and 15 odd rifles (was also had to zero the match rifles).

We could have doubled up but needed an experienced person to plot for each rifle and to spot the rogues.

The rifles that performed best during zeroing performed best yesterday generally speaking.

Just don't call it F class, match the targets to the rifles, decent ammo, but give them a good static display so they can see the differences between the rifles, disciplines etc.

This way it is what it is, but with the options made clear so that they know where to start looking.

Rather unfairly I forgot TR and the classic boys as well, and what about BP.

I just think we missed the trick and that it is not the discipline that matters, but the distance (like you say).

This distance does have it's own unique set of problems, and if presented clearly and simply, folk then appreciate the challenge, and it keeps them occupied pre or post shoot.

This way they get some idea about what the hell they are up against.

Agreed?

[Maggot]

I was there yesterday with my wife and daughter. As ever the coaches were great and we all had our fun. On the F Class I went down the 'competent' queue smoothly and enjoyed myself. My wife and daughter gave up. The novice queue had moved hardly at all after an hour and they were looking at another hour. It may have been the time we were there - around 1pm. It was a shame, my daughter had been to a previous open day and, coached by ENS, really enjoyed the long range shooting and wanted another go. My wife has no experience of shooting and I felt she would have enjoyed it. I don't know why the queues were moving more slowly than previously.

Its a difficult one. The coaches and everyone supporting the points work incredibly hard and are really enthusiastic. It will always take time to give a good experience at 1000 yards but don't underestimate the importance of the 1000yd shoot to the open day. It has to be there.

I started shooting after an open day. Didn't know what F class was but 1000 yards was the experience where it all clicked. You had 10 minutes with someone who could get you shooting in the black over half a mile away - wow. The technicalities really don't matter to the average open day punter but the long range does. Its a particularly satisfying moment that you want to repeat. Hitting the v-bull at 1000yards is normal to all of the coaches but can look a bit like witchcraft from the outside, its special.

Hi Ken

No, I guess we all want to see our part supported, so perhaps calling it what it is would be a good call.

Long range shooting.

I agree it does have to be there, many never get the chance otherwise, it's what attracted me as I said. It's also good use of a specialised and rare commodity....a 1000yd range.

Hopefully we will all get together (Coaches etc) and have a discussion and a de brief.

The problem with this way of doing things (on here) is ideas come across skewed and folk misunderstand.

It is not for me to say how things should be done, just what I think, how I felt, and what I can offer next time round.

The idea is to attract folk into the sport and to inspire them that's in it already.

I think the technicalities need to be displayed on a take it or leave it basis, this way if you get it, you know where to look next.

Tim makes a great comparison with golf, if you could see the track off the bullet you would be gobsmacked that someone could do it.

Oh well, that was my first time at it, I hope it inspired some, im going to shut it now and wait for a bun fight at the OK corral for the next one.

[karen]

OK I was the person in charge of the Open Day shooting until last year.

It was decided quite a while back that the MR and F Class were going to be referred to as Scoped Long Range Rifle for the very reasons you describe. It was still split on the firing point into MR and "F"ish but all the signs were changed and the coaches told to work together. Not sure why its gone back to the separate disciplines.

Problem with real F Class was that noone was prepared to use their own F Class rifles (as you are probably talking about 200 or so rounds down your expensive short life barrels) and the NRA just don't have that many suitable rifles.

There was a handout written by Paul Monaghan which described F class and was given out to all the customers. NRA should have a copy somewhere - if not will try and give a copy to next years organisers. Or write a new one yourselves and get NRA to photocopy it?

As regards zeroing the lovely Dudley Turner (now sadly not with us) used to come down on Fridays and zero the lot on Stickledown (he didn't bother with the Zero Range).

Love

Karen