Bisley Open Day September 2013

[Maggot]

OK I was the person in charge of the Open Day shooting until last year.

It was decided quite a while back that the MR and F Class were going to be referred to as Scoped Long Range Rifle for the very reasons you describe. It was still split on the firing point into MR and "F"ish but all the signs were changed and the coaches told to work together. Not sure why its gone back to the separate disciplines.

Problem with real F Class was that noone was prepared to use their own F Class rifles (as you are probably talking about 200 or so rounds down your expensive short life barrels) and the NRA just don't have that many suitable rifles.

There was a handout written by Paul Monaghan which described F class and was given out to all the customers. NRA should have a copy somewhere - if not will try and give a copy to next years organisers. Or write a new one yourselves and get NRA to photocopy it?

As regards zeroing the lovely Dudley Turner (now sadly not with us) used to come down on Fridays and zero the lot on Stickledown (he didn't bother with the Zero Range).

Love

Karen

The zeroing was actually done at 1000 initially K.

The problem was that several did not seem to like the ammo (GGG) or were grumpy, so we made the decision to remove them to the zero range and put them in the ball park where, as you may expect, they did what the were supposed to do on a zero range.

These rifles were then labelled as having been checked on the zero range, and handed over.

What was clear was that some really did not like the GGG, which was understandable. The RUAG seemed to fix some ills.

The other problem was that we suddenly had F class targets, which is kind of counter intuitive when you have ammo that is giving 2MOA (at best) generally and in some cases keyholing.

I am sure things will come out in the wash and will be sorted next time round, or massaged a bit.

From my point of view it was a good day, I met some good folk, had a couple of gaffs pulled on me, and hopefully convinced some that it was worth their while.

If I am invited I will do it again, with subtle changes.

[morph007]

Afternoon everybody,

I thought I'd add my tuppence worth.

I took two non shooting friends along and we had a great time. We worked ourselves around all the shooting disciplines, met some great people and had
a lot of fun. The only down side for me was a little rain and the waiting time for the F class, but to me a lot of the time wasted was down to the constant
"No 4" calls to the markers. Now as somebody who up to yesterday had only shot out to 600 yards, an opportunity to shoot out to 1000 yards was great, even
better was that Tom my instructor let me use his own Savage Arms model 12 F/TR and 5 of his hand loads. It's a wonderful rifle and one I've been looking at
upgrading to for a while so to actually use one on a 1000 yard range, absolutely priceless. Tom many thanks.

As for my friends? The good news is that they are both now hooked, two more for the dark side... :shakeshout:

Mark

[The Cupcake Kid]

Surely the answer is to get willing rifle builders to supply a gun or two, along with information about their products and services so everyone benefits?

[Mr_Logic]

Maggot, I don't agree with your solution for next year, but good write up.

the NRA rifles, ruag ammo (or similar) and TR targets will give someone a good idea, and shooting at 1k is popular just because it is 1k.

with ruag ammo and the TR target, I think accuracy of gun matches target. We still shoot on TR targets as our club is TR mainly. It's still fun, so would work at an open day.

we need more guys helping you with Friday zeroing next year though - ideally one or two rifles per shooter. That and decent ammo, and we can do a good display.

Which part...the F class rifles/targets are a none starter really if we are honest.

We were told we would be getting TR targets as well, not sure where the TR targets came from.

That was just a thought (re a specialist slot and rifles) and it wont happen.

That's more or less what I said otherwise Tom. The problem with the zeroing was manifold.

You could have stopped there all day and it would not have made much difference.

We only had a target AM. Nothing we took on the zero range cut it at 1000, and had it been down to the powers we would have simply been presented with collimated rifles.

We had to drop these on ave 3-4MOA, one example being some 8 MOA low...which was nice.

We had 100 rds and 15 odd rifles (was also had to zero the match rifles).

We could have doubled up but needed an experienced person to plot for each rifle and to spot the rogues.

The rifles that performed best during zeroing performed best yesterday generally speaking.

Just don't call it F class, match the targets to the rifles, decent ammo, but give them a good static display so they can see the differences between the rifles, disciplines etc.

This way it is what it is, but with the options made clear so that they know where to start looking.

Rather unfairly I forgot TR and the classic boys as well, and what about BP.

I just think we missed the trick and that it is not the discipline that matters, but the distance (like you say).

This distance does have it's own unique set of problems, and if presented clearly and simply, folk then appreciate the challenge, and it keeps them occupied pre or post shoot.

This way they get some idea about what the hell they are up against.

Agreed?

I think we're pretty close :)

I think if we had the F-class blurb out as this year there would be no issue then shooting on a TR target and still calling the section F-Class. It's not difficult to explain why we're not shooting on F-class targets, and the shooting we can call 'introduction to f-class'. You're still shooting off a bipod, with .308 and (hopefully!) with a back bag, and you are shooting at 1000 yards. Just on an easier target to stop you being demoralised. Certainly, if Weez had started on the F-class target, she'd not be shooting now I don't think.

Those NRA guns, if properly set up (and I am not in any way blaming you guys - the fault lies with NRA entirely) should shoot RUAG ammo OK into a TR target. The dialogue with the NRA will be important - we can't have zeroed guns being swapped for non-zeroed guns willy-nilly, and any work we do to those rifles ahead of time must be left intact.

As an aside - I found teh difference with a match custom barrel, and a savage FTR factory barrel very well shown this morning - Savage 223 (10 rounds through in the day) - 20+ patches and scrubbing even with C2R.

308 Broughton 5C (100 rounds, and the previous trip too) - 10 patches start to finish. Does make life easier!

[IainWR]

I think we're pretty close :)

Those NRA guns, if properly set up (and I am not in any way blaming you guys - the fault lies with NRA entirely) should shoot RUAG ammo OK into a TR target. The dialogue with the NRA will be important - we can't have zeroed guns being swapped for non-zeroed guns willy-nilly, and any work we do to those rifles ahead of time must be left intact.

Hi

Just to keep the record straight.

My staff did not swap zeroed for non-zeroed guns willy nilly. That concept is simply fantasy. Work done on the rifles ahead of time was indeed left intact. When I found a possible fault on one of the guns as it was being issued I took it out of service. It was replaced an hour or so later with the one and only spare, and I did not know whether that had been zeroed or not (remember the volunteers did the zeroing on Friday). Later in the day, presented with a failure of some sort, my staff used another rifle we had available as a base to add a scope and attempt to bring it into service. I have been told that was not successful; I am not clear why.

RUAG costs around 75p a bang ex VAT and overheads. That's nearly double the price of GGG.

The efforts of the volunteers are hugely appreciated, but the staff are also doing their best with the available resources. Remember what I commented on page 1 of this thread: http://www.full-bore.co.uk/viewtopic.ph ... 31#p149702

The concept of the Open Day always was that volunteers in each discipline would find ways to showcase their element of the sport. The ideas discussed above to achieve just that are exactly the sort of thing that is needed.

Iain
NRA Firearms Manager

[slate]

Was down there yesterday and had a great time.

-F-Class: bull, bull, v-bull, 4 and an off target which I'm sure was wrongly scored - not bad for my second ever attempt with Bisley army ammo...
-Sharps Black Powder cartridge, Mr Bison took two to the heart (5,5,) two lung shots (4,4) and one spine (3), not bad, but lovely and noisy and smelly....500 grains of pure fun....
-SMLE, 5,4,4,3,3 - Mr SMLE didn't like my super low position and punished my shoulder...need to work on this one...
-7.62 Swing target - Rifle wasn't zeroed, so shot two tights groups (two top to prove it wasn't sighted); one 3 on the way to sighting and one group of 4,4, as I dialled too far left. I suspect I'll be doing this with my small bore club which has a full bore section
- BSRC, I didn't do this time as I'm joining so felt it fairer to let others shoot.

All round a great day, just a shame about the queueing and the two poor sods that got scope-kissed - one very badly.

So many disciplines so little time..... party2

[Mr_Logic]

Iain, I am not saying that rifles were swapped this year, not more than a few anyway. I am saying once zeroed with decent ammo, those guns must then be kept separate

the mil surp ammo is simply not up to 1000 yards, and really not on F-class targets. I appreciate that decent ammo is a higher cost, and obviously that is a factor.

however, if we are getting people with decent scores, then they go away happy and we get interest. If we are sending them away with 3 ex 25, they'll be put off,so best not to have a demo with the poor ammo imho.

[Mr_Logic]

Also, regarding setup of rifles, the one I had - first thing I had to do was screw the scope on it - was just finger-tight.

we had problems this year for sure. The setup was done by NRA this year so that is where the fault lies - my suggestion is we collaborate more next year. More people to assist with setup and we can get more care for each rifle. Resources are tight and I accept that but we need to make a better job of it next year for the customers.

[IainWR]

Iain, I am not saying that rifles were swapped this year, not more than a few anyway. I am saying once zeroed with decent ammo, those guns must then be kept separate

the mil surp ammo is simply not up to 1000 yards, and really not on F-class targets. I appreciate that decent ammo is a higher cost, and obviously that is a factor.

The guns were zeroed by volunteers on Friday (I understand - that was the arrangement - I was in court all day trying to get someone's FAC back). Nobody touched them overnight. The ammo isn't mil surp, it is new factory 7.62x51 NATO with a 147 gr bullet. I agree it's not ideal for 1000 though it has been used quite successfully by lots of people, and it is entirely possible that some of the rifles aren't getting enough MV out of it to give competitive performance at that distance on a coldish day. Unfortunately, we do not do enough shooting with expert participants using club guns at 1000 to reliably determine which guns may have an issue and in what circumstances.

[Mr_Logic]

Iain, please don't take offence - none is meant from my comments. I had heard, granted, not first hand, that some of the zeroed rifles were replaced at the last minute, hence my comment that some were swapped.

TBH, it's largely irrelevant for this year. The fact of the matter is that the combination of rifles and ammunition supplied was not up to the task. I don't think there is any great gain in accusations or defensive language from any side. I am stating, in a matter-of-fact way, which I accept is not always easy to convey in a forum setting, that the guns were not up to scratch. It's a statement of fact, and it's not meant to have a go at anyone.

The reasons as I understand them are these:

* Rifles set up broadly by the NRA ahead of time and final zeroing by two of the volunteers on Friday meant lack of time per rifle for making sure all was 100%
* Factory 7.62x51 military ammo used

The combination meant that the guns weren't shooting right a lot of the time. Therefore as I see it the solution is to get more of the volunteers to help out on the Friday and get the guns working right. The coaches are all people who can set up a rifle, mount a scope etc. I appreciate the NRA is strapped for time and people, and so I don't think there will be a problem if we get more volunteers with the rifles ahead of time. Hell - we could do this a week ahead of time if the week-day timing is a problem for many.

personally, I would have been a lot happier with the coaching if the rifle I was using was one that i had set up ahead of time, knew that it worked, and i'd spent the time on it. I didn't see a single rifle/scope combo there that couldn't have worked, but the fact was some were not working acceptably.

I don't have any problem putting the time in ahead of the event so when we're up there with paying customers, we give them the right experience. In fact, I would much rather that, because I hated seeing people unhappy because they weren't getting a decent score (hence earlier comments about a TR target - might not be true to life, but it's going to get people interested, and the shooting experience with scoped rifle, 308 and 1000 yards IS true to life).

The only thing where I think we need the NRA to up the standard is the ammo. That military stuff isn't good enough for that distance. We found that across the board. The RUAG stuff definitely is.

Thus, I think the question is simple - how do we make sure that the RUAG, or similar, is the stuff we shoot on that open day? There is a financial challenge for sure, but there are ways of meeting it - increased price for F-class shooting perhaps? Or asking ammo manufacturers very nicely for 2,000 of your finest rounds at a discount price (and there is something in it for them too - more people shooting = more sales)?

I would very much like for discussion here to be constructive - I am absolutely NOT looking for a slanging match. The fact of the matter is we got the ammo and rifles wrong this year to a point, so I'm looking for ways to make it right next year, not trying to blame anyone at all, for anything.