Owning multiples of the same Sect 58 antique firearm.

[TomEnfield]

Would it be illegal to possess 2 of the same Sect 58 antique firearms with 1 firearm being on your certificated used for target shooting with and ammunition and rifle stored correctly and the other firearm not being registered and hung on the wall?

For instance; you own and shoot a Martini Henry MkIV in .450/577, which you secure in your cabinet and the .450/577 ammunition is stored in your ammo safe. You also have a Martini Henry MKI in .450/577 which you hang on the wall in your house. Would you be breaking the law by possessing the Martini Henry MKI, because you possess .450/577 ammunition? Or would the police have to prove you had the intent to fire the Martini Henry MKI before it could be deemed that you have broken the law?

As expected no firm answer can be found in firearms legislation the closet I've found is below.

Guide on firearms licensing law April 2016, Chapter 8, Para 8.2,
"An indication of an intent to fire the gun concerned which may be signalled by the possession of suitable ammunition or even blank charge used for the purposes of historical re-enactment displays may well mean that the gun cannot be said to be held solely as an object of “curiosity or ornament”. "

Guide on firearms licensing law April 2016, Chapter 8, Para 8.10,
"The exemption does not apply to ammunition, and the possession of live ammunition suitable for use with an otherwise antique firearm may indicate that the firearm is not possessed as a curiosity or ornament."

N.B. unfortunately I currently own 0 Martini Henrys of any MK

[River]

Don't really know the answer, but I would suspect if you have the ammo they would want anything capable of firing it to be securely stored. They could also say well you have ammo so it's not Sec 58. It's an interesting one, and most probably not one that would go well! Good luck, great rifles, I shoot a MK iv

[HH1]

Isn't there a provision to "test fire" old guns occasionally..... I have heard of people doing it.

[dromia]

Your authority to possess ammunition is for the gun on your FAC not for the guns not on your FAC.

If you shoot your section 58 guns, or intend to, with the ammunition on your FAC then you have committed a crime.

[TomEnfield]

Isn't there a provision to "test fire" old guns occasionally..... I have heard of people doing it.

Yes that's pretty much the restriction you'll get on your ticket if your good reason for a firearm is solely as part of a collection.

There is no one off loop hole to allow you to shoot a sect 58 firearm off ticket.

[TomEnfield]

Your authority to possess ammunition is for the gun on your FAC not for the guns not on your FAC.

If you shoot your section 58 guns, or intend to, with the ammunition on your FAC then you have committed a crime.

Do you know of any case law relating to this scenario.

The difficulty here in the case of multiple but the same sect 58 firearms on and off tickets is defining intent to fire. Home office guidance says possessing ammunition implies intent. But surely in court to be proved beyond reasonable doubt you'd need to be caught with that sect 58 off ticket firearm loaded* and in your hands.

Seems like another triumph for reason and logic in British firearms law.

*what loaded actually means in firearms law is also confused- is it; rounds in the mag, rounds in the chamber, rounds your person or rounds within reach?

[Gazoo]

Well, I have both on and off ticket, MH and sniders and have not thought that I am breaking the law. If you DO NOT have one on FAC and have ammo then you are committing a crime just with the unlicensed ammo, then the police could make a good case that you intend to use both ammo and guns at some point. I can see no good argument that you are trying to break the law when you have got FAC for the ammo and obviously a gun, just because you have others that you display. One of my Martinis had a lot of pitting under the barrel, thats why I didn't shoot it (your Honour)

[FredB]

I have shot a 310 Cadet rifle for many years. About 10 years ago, I acquired a Rook rifle in the same calibre and sent my ticket off to have it added. The resonse that I got was:"Why do you need another one added---you already have one". I explained that they were of different configuration and that I needed to shoot them both. Eventually, reluctantly, they added it on. When the Firearms Officer came roubd on my next renewal he said that it was quite common for FAC holders to have collections in one calibre with only one licensed for shooting.
Fred

[Hunter87]

Innocent until proven guilty

[TomEnfield]

So reading into this a little deeper:

The CPS gives the following guidance with some case law,

Section 58(2) of the 1968 Act exempts from the provisions of firearms legislation (including those provisions relating to certificate controls in sections 1 and 2 and prohibited weapons under section 5) all antique firearms which are sold, transferred, purchased, acquired or possessed as curiosities or ornaments.

It is a question of fact and not law as to whether a gun is an antique, or not (Richards v Curwen 65 Cr.App. R.95). The case of R v Burke 67 (Cr. App. R. 220) states that it is for the Prosecution to prove that the firearm does not come within the ambit of section 58(2) and it is a matter for the jury to decide upon.

Prosecutors are reminded that even if a weapon is held to be an antique by virtue of its age and characteristics, the exemption will only be available if it is possessed or dealt with as an "ornament or curiosity".

Each case should be dealt with on its merits and evidence on classification of individual weapons should be sought from the appropriate Forensic Service Provider. The expert's evidence may include an indication as to whether the weapon could be classed as an antique but the surrounding circumstances as to the reasons for which the weapon is held are matters that do not call for expert's opinion, so should not be commented upon in any report.

The use to which a weapon has been (if not licensed) or could be put is vital. If the owner has fired the weapon, it remains an antique, but is no longer held as a curiosity or ornament and the exemption will not apply. It follows that a weapon held as a curiosity or ornament in the mistaken belief that it is an antique does not benefit from the exemption granted in Section 58(2).

Similarly if any of the criminal use offences are alleged, then this is evidence that the weapon is not possessed as an ornament.

Other factors which may indicate whether the weapon is held as an ornament or curiosity include the location of the firearm, (firearms that are carried away from the home without good reason may be less likely to be held as ornaments than those found at home), whether it is hidden or concealed as opposed to displayed openly and evidence of other criminality that may be related to the firearm.

The exemption does not apply to ammunition, and the possession of live ammunition suitable for use with an otherwise antique firearm may indicate that the firearm is not possessed as a curiosity or ornament.

Possession of the 'precursor' items used in home-assembly of ammunition (casings, bullets, powders, presses) and not illegal themselves may also be relevant circumstances, when considering if the exemption under S58(2) applies."

The above indicates the following to be true: You are only breaking the law if you take a Section 58 Martini Henry and load it with live ammunition or use it in other criminal activity. Having a sect 1 Martini Henry and .450/577 ammunition would not effect the status of a Sect 58 Martini Henry that you also owned.

bigteeth