The differences between ammo quality

[judders]

Hi all,

I picked up some .308 ammo the other day whilst at Bisley. They were offering Sellier & Bellot 147gr for £55/100 and RWS 155gr at £90(ish)/100.

This got me thinking, what exactly is it that makes such a difference in both cost and performance of ammo? Is it smaller tolerances in the weight/size of the components, which therefore drive up the overall production cost?

Also, you see the term 'match' in listings for ammo, at what point would ammo be considered 'match', is there a specific measurement? Or does it just mean it's better than the manufacturer's plinking ammo?

How much more accurate would you expect the RWS to be, over the Sellier & Bellot cheap stuff? I'll probably find out at the weekend, but thought it'd be useful to have realistic expectations.

Cheers,

Jud

[meles meles]

As I understand it, the real gains are to be made when you hand load ammunition and thus can select the combination of bullet, powder charge, seating depth and so forth that best suit your own individual rifle.

I shoot only shop bought ammunition, and military surplus at that, for two reasons:

1. It's lower cost
2. It's what was used in my rifles originally (I collect older military rifles)

So far, I have found the results acceptable enough for me - I'm still the weakest link in the chain when shooting WW1 and WW2 era bolt action rifles with iron sights at 300 and 600 yards.

[Steve E]

It all depends on what you want the ammunition to do. I want ammunition to shoot to at least 1MOA at all distances and I am not convinced that the S&B will. On the occasion that I did shoot some, the best I could get with it in my Target Rifle was a 2MOA at 600yds which is not good enough. Whilst the S&B 147gr will probably perform adequately it is no where near being 'match grade' ammunition. It is mass produced, using in principle a NATO spec ball bullet that probably does not have the best ballistic co-efficient for its weight.
Is RWS worth being nearly twice the price of S&B, I dont know but you won't find any serious Target Rifle Shooters using it in competitions where any ammo is allowed. It just won't perform as well as the RWS. The RWS is definately 'Match Grade'. It is produced to much higher standards, uses a much better bullet (sierra 155match king, the old Palma bullet) and is produced to an NRA requirement for Match Amunition for the Imperial Meeting.
Myself, I would like to see RWS at the same price as the S&B but that is ever going to happen. You just have to decide for yourself what is good for you. By the way I was shooting with a chap on Saturday who was using S&B and he was having primers become proud by about 20thou after firing. When he changed to RWS the problem disappeared. This suggests that the S&B has either a low charge or the case head to shoulder dimension is incorrect giving headspace issues or a combination of both.
Shoot both and tell us what you think about both brands.

Steve

[IainWR]

RWS NRA 155 gr ammo meets (actually usually betters quite comfortably) the following performance spec (from memory; it is 4 years since I was involved in writing the contract):

Sierra 155 MatchKing bullet or other bullet as approved by NRA
Min average muzzle velocity from a 30" x 1/13" twist 298"/3065" barrel 2920 ft/sec
Max SD on MV from any 10-round group 17 ft/sec
Max average SD on 4 10-round test groups 12 ft /sec
Max average working pressure from a 7.62mm CIP test Barrel 3650 Bar
Max single 10-round group at 300m 80mm
Max average of 4 10-round groups at 300m 73mm

This was written on the basis that we could not test 1000 yd performance directly, so we specified minimum MV and max SD coupled with 300m (RUAG are a Swiss / German company so do metres rather than yards) accuracy and combined it with a bullet spec that experience told us that fired at those velocity and SD limits would perform at 1000.

You do not buy that kind of spec over 450 000 rounds at the price of S&B. I am not certain, but I think it likely that the lowest % profit margin on any ammo sold by the NRA is on RUAG.

And if anyone out there can meet that spec at less than about 85p/round delivered at Bisley for 0.5M rounds, I would like to hear from them.

Iain

[dromia]

What you pay for is consistency and quality control, consistency of components and consistency of manufacture. SMKs are not necessarily better designed than S&B bullets but they more consistent in weight, jacket thickness, materials quality etc. etc.

Thats what you pay your money for in high performance ammunition and components. In shooting accuracy comes from consistency in all things.

[John25]

Good results will never come cheaply.

Usually the best components are the dearest but not always so.

It is the nature of the beast, we just have to suffer it.

Didn't someone post recently that it cost them about five quid a bang when all costs were included?

Must work mine out some day.

[ovenpaa]

Slightly off topic but here goes....

Reloading your own is in theory cheaper, I am yet to see this confirmed based on what I have in my shed....You can however shoot a cheaper yet equally efficient bullet or cartridge even if it is not quite as fashionable and still be every bit as competitive. Same goes for barrel lengths, you should able to hold your own with a 24” barrel versus the 30”+ things we see on the firing point, certainly out to 1000x

155 Lapua or the new 155 SMK's versus 185 Berger is an example on the bullet side of things, yes in theory the 185 is a better wind beater than the 155 however I would say get you wind reading skills in place first, then think about the 185's.

6.5 anything is suddenly less fashionable than the new crop of 7mm/.284's - When did you last hear about someone building a new 6.bowl other than X47? Now look at the price for the current 123/139/140/142 grain bullets for the 6.bowl versus the new 7mm's such as the Berger Targets, VLD's and Hybrids. Ouch springs to mind.

Yebbut surely the new .284's and 32" barrel F/TR rifles are more accurate? Are they? maybe in the hands of the highly talented top shots. I am going to shoot my next F Open comp with a 6.5 hunting rifle off a Harris bipod and a woolly sock filled with sand, it will be interesting to see how well I get on.....

[John25]

As long as the nut behind the butt is tight, a wooly sock will do it.

Good luck, I shall be looking at the scores. Sadly, Diggle is no longer in the plan!

:cheers:

[ovenpaa]

What about the F Class at The Easter meet or Phoenix? I am not sure I can make the first but I will do my best to be at the Phoenix.

[John25]

Easter is booked for 'domestic responsibilities' Phoenix is in the plan, if I get my act together on the paperwork (now down to about an inch) I might even be able to get the scope on the 7mm and get in some trigger time over this week-end.

Trouble is, the sun is shining, I'm on the decking with the pad, the paperwork is losing priority!