F/TR shooters may wish to note

[Dangermouse]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... ht-limits/

F/TR shooters may wish to read the above link etc and possibly vote.

I would be interested to hear from Vince, Mik, Stuart or Laurie re how the outcome will affect the UK. Personally when the two countries compete against each other I would be surprised if the UK F Class league could afford to do something different.

Unfortunately I have not got the time tonight to fully read this but Will return at the weekend to read the arguments for and against,

DM

[Gun Pimp]

Well, DM - I voted to leave well alone - in other words do not restrict us on bullet weight.

Until F/TR came along, few would choose the 308 as a serious long-range target round but the F/TR guys have really pushed this cartridge to achieve some fantastic results - for example, Russ Simmonds set a new GB record at Diggle with a score of 99.8v with his 308 - that's at 1000 yards with a ten-inch diameter bull - and apparently his one four was very close to the line.

Could there be even more to come with the new range of 'heavy' hybrids from Berger? Who knows but at least give us the chance to find out.

Vince

[ovenpaa]

..and on the subject of weight I received this via Mik today:

Checking of rifle weights.

In the interests of maintaining fairness and equality for all members, the Association will now be taking a more robust approach to enforcing the weight limits applicable to F/TR and F/O.
Starting with the Long Range Challenge, all competitors will have their rifles weighed and stickered to prove their compliance.

Any F/TR rifle which fails the weight check will be given an opportunity to retest, if the rifle still fails it will be placed in the F/O category.
Any F/O rifle which fails the weight check will be given an opportunity to retest, if the rifle still fails, the rifle may be used but no League points will be awarded.

Scales will be in use at every subsequent League match to weigh any new rifles or reweigh any changed rifles.
A record will be maintained by the Association of which rifles have been weighed and their details.

I trust you agree that we should enforce the minimal rules which apply to F-class to ensure fairness to all.
I would urge all members to ensure their compliance.

Regards,
Des Parr.

[R.G.C]

Well, DM - I voted to leave well alone - in other words do not restrict us on bullet weight.

Until F/TR came along, few would choose the 308 as a serious long-range target round but the F/TR guys have really pushed this cartridge to achieve some fantastic results - for example, Russ Simmonds set a new GB record at Diggle with a score of 99.8v with his 308 - that's at 1000 yards with a ten-inch diameter bull - and apparently his one four was very close to the line.

Could there be even more to come with the new range of 'heavy' hybrids from Berger? Who knows but at least give us the chance to find out.

Vince

Gun Pimp,
No longer a shooter for physical reasons, I believe if I was still able to shoot, I would have taken the F/TR with a .308 and a 155 grains bullet or more likely a .223 in respect for my ageing shoulder….. Even MR I practiced for 23 years would probably have been too much for me!! I Forced to shoot .223, I would have had to consider being at an unfair disadvantage to shooters using .308 with heavy new style bullets.
Americans are usually against every restrictions and have for instance advocated changes in TR international rules that have either took time to be abrogated, or are not adopted by other host countries. Just notice the exclusivity of the Sierra 155grs for the Palma and World Champs, adopted at Wellington in 1995, and abrogated (Bisley) in 2003 to allow competition between brands and choices by users and fair competition. Also the rifle and trigger no-weight limit, adopted in a dubious fashion and not adopted in countries where a weight limit exist in the local rules…
The F/TR discipline was created and is still considered by a vast majority as a substitute for shooters no longer able to shoot TR, and who could at minimal expense continue to be competitive with the equipment they have on their tickets. If you want to change that, it will be to the benefit of the trade, and to the detriment of the potentials and the discipline itself..
Effectively, the question every potential already possessing a competitive equipment will be asking himself is “ What’s the point for me to try to remain competitive when I cannot afford to be on the competitive level in euipment?’’.
I understand there is in USA a tendancy to return to reason for F-TR. For those having interests in the equipment race, the F-Open is practically a no-limit playground and source of profit, but the F/TR should remain affordable to those who, physically or financially can only afford this shooting to continue to enjoy life….
Every day we see sophistication growing in F-Open; new products, ,new technologies and materials, etc, etc…There is enough to do in this growing discipline to maintain the F/TR to what it was intended to be.
No longer a shooter, I however fully support the Darrell’s initiative and proposal..
BTW; I understand you are primarily a F-Open shooter??
My point only, FWIW
R.G.C

[spud]

My take on this is , if your rifle meets saami spec in either .308 or .223 and meets the build weight issues its up to you to decide what bullet weight you want to shoot FTR is very competitive and the FTR shooters are now up to and even in some cases out shooting up F Open boyos, I think it works well as is, so leave well alone

just my 2 cents

[Mr_Logic]

I like the idea of a bullet weight restriction but mainly to curb my natural tendency to play with stuff, instead focusing on having to shoot!

I don't think heavy bullets will necessarily bring salvation and higher scores to all. I've found with 223, which I have worked with extensively for several years, that the top end of the bullet weights gets very finicky indeed. 90VLDs I cannot get to shoot due to lack of throat I think, but the 90 BTs I did get working in tight-ish (it's only a factory Savage!) groups (<.5 MOA but not much better than that). However, at long range, the elevation spread is simply nuts, around 1 1/2 MOA at its extremes.

If I spend hours and hours working on brass and weighing loads to the most minute level of detail, I can bring that in a bit.

However, if I drive the 80.5 Fullbore (ballistically near enough a twin for the 155.5 Berger) then I get a good elevation spread without any real effort on brass, and then just loading with the chargemaster. I tried H322 last time out, only at 500 yards though, and it produced an elevation string with near-enough zero difference for about 10 rounds. The overall spread was about a half-minute and that was the odd one.

Given the brass is not in the best nick and I could do with replacing, I am happy enough with that initial result. I expect more variance at 1000 yards for sure, but the results are encouraging next to the 90s.

The relevance here is that I expect people will see the same problem when trying the same thing in a .308 (and indeed the Americans appear to be complaining of it already). yes, you push the cartridge with the promise of reward, but if you can never make the damn thing work then you're better sticking with something which DOES work and getting on the target!

And there's the thing - overall, let's leave alone because if someone does get the heavies working well, and spends the time likely needed to do it, fair play to them - they deserve some success because it'll probably have taken over their life!!

[TattooedGun]

My take on this is as follows;

I've always understood that F/TR was a way to remain fairly level on the playing field and there were a lot more restrictions in order to keep it so. (how much I'm not with the times, only on reading up about it 3 days ago I found out that the 156gr limit was rescinded!)

I'd vote to take it back to its grass roots, and have the 156gr limit - keep it on par with TR class, and have it not as an arms race, but purely about the nut behind the bolt. Someone shooting a 155gr bullet, in their TR rifle with a scope and bipod fitted is at a definite disadvantage to someone shooting 185/200/210gr bullets... if you want to go that route, I'd suggest going F-open. Of course, what I think, won't come into consideration because those that look for every advantage have already pushed the discipline far past what I always thought it was meant to be :(

[Gun Pimp]

Well, DM - I voted to leave well alone - in other words do not restrict us on bullet weight.

Until F/TR came along, few would choose the 308 as a serious long-range target round but the F/TR guys have really pushed this cartridge to achieve some fantastic results - for example, Russ Simmonds set a new GB record at Diggle with a score of 99.8v with his 308 - that's at 1000 yards with a ten-inch diameter bull - and apparently his one four was very close to the line.

Could there be even more to come with the new range of 'heavy' hybrids from Berger? Who knows but at least give us the chance to find out.

Vince

Gun Pimp,
No longer a shooter for physical reasons, I believe if I was still able to shoot, I would have taken the F/TR with a .308 and a 155 grains bullet or more likely a .223 in respect for my ageing shoulder….. Even MR I practiced for 23 years would probably have been too much for me!! I Forced to shoot .223, I would have had to consider being at an unfair disadvantage to shooters using .308 with heavy new style bullets.
Americans are usually against every restrictions and have for instance advocated changes in TR international rules that have either took time to be abrogated, or are not adopted by other host countries. Just notice the exclusivity of the Sierra 155grs for the Palma and World Champs, adopted at Wellington in 1995, and abrogated (Bisley) in 2003 to allow competition between brands and choices by users and fair competition. Also the rifle and trigger no-weight limit, adopted in a dubious fashion and not adopted in countries where a weight limit exist in the local rules…
The F/TR discipline was created and is still considered by a vast majority as a substitute for shooters no longer able to shoot TR, and who could at minimal expense continue to be competitive with the equipment they have on their tickets. If you want to change that, it will be to the benefit of the trade, and to the detriment of the potentials and the discipline itself..
Effectively, the question every potential already possessing a competitive equipment will be asking himself is “ What’s the point for me to try to remain competitive when I cannot afford to be on the competitive level in euipment?’’.
I understand there is in USA a tendancy to return to reason for F-TR. For those having interests in the equipment race, the F-Open is practically a no-limit playground and source of profit, but the F/TR should remain affordable to those who, physically or financially can only afford this shooting to continue to enjoy life….
Every day we see sophistication growing in F-Open; new products, ,new technologies and materials, etc, etc…There is enough to do in this growing discipline to maintain the F/TR to what it was intended to be.
No longer a shooter, I however fully support the Darrell’s initiative and proposal..
BTW; I understand you are primarily a F-Open shooter??
My point only, FWIW
R.G.C

RGC - Good points re 223 - which Laurie Holland has proved can be competitive with the 308Win. But to my knowledge, Laurie is really the only one who has followed this route - in other words, found something by experimenting - something the 308 F/TR shooters are also doing - to the benefit of all competitive 308Win. shooters - why restrict it?

Me? I dabble in Open and F/TR but I don't take it as seriously as some. I do a few GBFCA League shoots because I enjoy the high level of competition and the good company but I shoot several other disciplines, with benchrest being my main interest.

Although top-level F Class competition may be seen by some as an 'arms race' - this is the pinnacle of the sport - like Formula 1. Visit my home range any weekend and you will see a couple of dozen F Open and F/TR shooters using every possible type of equipment, simply enjoying long-range target shooting with what ever rifle they have.

Incidentally, the Current World F/TR Champion prefers the 155 bullet though the European Champion won with the 185 Berger.

Vince

[Laurie]

Like Vince, I also voted against a cap, for the same reasons. Also, it's too late in the day - this cat isn't just out of the bag, it's been gone so long it's died of old age.

Something else people might wish to consider. The 'return to George Farquarson's original vision brigade' think only in terms of transfer from TR and Fullbore Rifle sling-shooting disciplines, but that flow is now really small - if it ever existed at all. The vast majority of new entrants at club level start with a heavy barrel sporter / multi-purpose rifle: Remington 700 PSS / VS, some of the Savage Model 12s and similar. Allow their owners to handload and shoot heavy bullets, they work and can even be competitive at times right out to 1,000 yards. Heavy bullets partly compensate for shorter barrels. Restrict them to 155s and they're severely hampered even at middle distances against the shooter with a tight-bore 30-32" match job that can get these bullets up to well over 3,000 fps.

I'm developing a secondhand .308 Win Howa 1500 Varmint at the moment as an 'affordable F/TR rifle'. While having developed some 155gn loads, the way to go with its 22" 1-12" twist barrel is undoubtedly to use the more ballistically efficient 168-200gn bullets - 168gn Berger Hybrid, the good old fashioned (and cheap!) 190 and 200gn Sierra Match Kings that stabilise fine in this barrel twist despite the commonly held view that you need 1-10", the Berger 175gn OTM Tactical designed to remain stable at transonic and subsonic velocities at long ranges from 20" barrel semi-auto military 'sharpshooter' rifles, the old Lapua D46 185gn FMJBT, and loads more. The Howa is 'longish throated' running most of these bullets at around 2.900" COALs, but I understand that recent manufacture Remy PSS rifles have ludicrously long throats, so much so that you simply cannot seat most 155s anywhere near the rifling leade. Many club level US F/TR shooters are running 210s at quite astonishing claimed MVs from their factory Remingtons thanks to this feature. If restricted to 155s, these long throats would make it very difficult to get decent velocities out of this weight bullet.