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Yes it does, perfectly. I just don't see this anywhere on the form itself or on any guidance notes. Please point me at the source.Harrier1980 wrote:I thought this summed it up?Harrier1980 wrote:There is a difference between the initial grant, (2 references, can be anyone, member or not of a club) and the renewal (2 references, one must be a club official, and one must not be a club member)
The full quote:rox wrote:Sorry, I must be thick, but I'm struggling to see this incomplete part. Please quote the part which states that the second referee may be a member of a target shooting club.IainWR wrote:The quote is incomplete. There is an entire paragraph before the one quoted that deals with grants.
Thanks!
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Taken from Note to Part E on Form 101:You must be resident in Great Britain. Members of the applicant’s immediate family, registered firearms dealers, serving police officers and police employees may not act as referees except as set out below in Note 4. A referee should be of good character. A reference should be given freely and not on payment.
Knowledge of the Applicant
3 Except in the case of a club official acting as a referee in accordance with Note 4 below, you should have known the applicant personally for at least two years. Please also state the capacity in which you have known the applicant: eg business or social, employer/employee.
4 If the application is made in respect of a renewal of a firearm certificate for a firearm for target shooting then one referee must be a club official of the approved club named on the applicants firearm certificate. Dealers may act as referees in these circumstances. The second referee must not be a member of any target shooting club. For the grant of a certificate it is not essential that one of the referees is a club official.
In other words, if you read the form 101 version, Iain is right and on a grant you can have two club members as referees.If this is a new application than both referees must have known you personally for at least two years. They must be resident in Great Britain and must not be a member of your immediate family. Registered firearms dealers, serving police officers or police employees cannot be accepted as referees, except as set out below. Referees must be of good character. References must be given freely and not on payment.
If your application is for the renewal of your firearm certificate for a firearm for target shooting then one of the referees must be an offical of the approved club named on your firearm certificate.
A registered firearms dealer may act as a referee in these circumstances. The other referee must not be a member of any target shooting club.
Gaz wrote:The full quote:
Taken from Note to Part E on Form 101:You must be resident in Great Britain. Members of the applicant’s immediate family, registered firearms dealers, serving police officers and police employees may not act as referees except as set out below in Note 4. A referee should be of good character. A reference should be given freely and not on payment.
Knowledge of the Applicant
3 Except in the case of a club official acting as a referee in accordance with Note 4 below, you should have known the applicant personally for at least two years. Please also state the capacity in which you have known the applicant: eg business or social, employer/employee.
4 If the application is made in respect of a renewal of a firearm certificate for a firearm for target shooting then one referee must be a club official of the approved club named on the applicants firearm certificate. Dealers may act as referees in these circumstances. The second referee must not be a member of any target shooting club. For the grant of a certificate it is not essential that one of the referees is a club official.
If this is a new application than both referees must have known you personally for at least two years. They must be resident in Great Britain and must not be a member of your immediate family. Registered firearms dealers, serving police officers or police employees cannot be accepted as referees, except as set out below. Referees must be of good character. References must be given freely and not on payment.
If your application is for the renewal of your firearm certificate for a firearm for target shooting then one of the referees must be an offical of the approved club named on your firearm certificate.
A registered firearms dealer may act as a referee in these circumstances. The other referee must not be a member of any target shooting club.
Both examples state unconditionally that the second/other referee must not be a member of a target shooting club. This has also been the advice given by the NRA and of all the clubs I have been involved with for the last 35 years. It also makes logical sense.Gaz wrote:In other words, if you read the form 101 version, Iain is right and on a grant you can have two club members as referees.
I think...
I don't suppose the police specifically check the club membership status of every referee, so in the context of what is the correct interpretation of the rules on referees I don't think this means anything either way.Yogi GunKanobee wrote:FWIW - I recently applied for, and was granted a FAC. Both of my referees were club members, both of which I have known for about 10 years.
Well, on the Reference form, part B, question 14, it asks "are you are an official of an approved target shooting club". Both of my friends are officials. When I filled out the application, re read the requirements over and over again, just to make sure. For an initial grant, I couldn't see anywhere where it says that a referee / referees should not be members of a club, only on a renewal, where one has to be a club official, and one not a member of any club. But then I'm just a noob, maybe I was lucky.rox wrote:I don't suppose the police specifically check the club membership status of every referee, so in the context of what is the correct interpretation of the rules on referees I don't think this means anything either way.Yogi GunKanobee wrote:FWIW - I recently applied for, and was granted a FAC. Both of my referees were club members, both of which I have known for about 10 years.
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So you also don't consider that the statement "The second referee must not be a member of any target shooting club" was applicable in the circumstances. It seems I am alone in reading it this way - well, alone with the former NRA FLO, and the NRA Vice President who has advised me since the 80s.Yogi GunKanobee wrote:For an initial grant, I couldn't see anywhere where it says that a referee / referees should not be members of a club, only on a renewal, where one has to be a club official, and one not a member of any club. But then I'm just a noob, maybe I was lucky.
AFAIK I've been looking at the current forms. I don't see that any condition is attached to the statement "The second referee must not be a member of any target shooting club" on form 125 Note 4, as I've explained above.Yogi GunKanobee wrote:Correct, as the question was about the Grant of an FAC, not a renewal. Perhaps the forms have changed since you applied for your first FAC?
Well, there you go! I guess when I was granted my FAC, the Force must have been with me!rox wrote:AFAIK I've been looking at the current forms. I don't see that any condition is attached to the statement "The second referee must not be a member of any target shooting club" on form 125 Note 4, as I've explained above.Yogi GunKanobee wrote:Correct, as the question was about the Grant of an FAC, not a renewal. Perhaps the forms have changed since you applied for your first FAC?
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