The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

IPSC RO's; what a load of tosh that system is.

Where did the information about building 'Practical' Bays at Bisley come from?

There are potentially better things to invest NRA their (the members) capital in in the short to medium, term.

Given a choice I would suggest the membership would need some significant persuasion to invest in IPSC facilities when upgrades to rifle target systems are more of a concern.

If the cost is borne out of the surplus profits made from TS events then that would go a long way to convince the membership that this is the way to go in directly supporting that discipline based on the size of the participation at Bisley.

When TS is the primary discipline of less than 50 individual NRA members I still struggle to see how this representative of the NRA membership's wishes or needs.

All those PSG shooters sitting on the sidelines waiting to see the outcome, why don’t you show your support for the NRA bid by joining the NRA.

Blackstuff wrote:
I understand that if they don't win the bid this development will be shelved Doesn't exactly show commitment to the sport. Even if they are built, how long will that take? Where will any Lv2 or higher matches be shot in the mean time? And more importantly, are all non-Lv1 matches going to have to shot there? If so i guess i'll never be putting in a Championship score or be graded again

It is also my understanding that during said meeting ONLY PSG was discussed There was no mention of mini/gallery/LBF matches

Surely, until the IPSC make any changes, all matches will continue to be shot where they are now? If the NRA do take control, what's to stop them running matches at the same venues used by the UKPSA now (apart from those venues refusing to cooperate)?

Why would they discuss non-IPSC disciplines at a meeting about IPSC matches? It doesn't mean other matches can't or won't be put on by the NRA. In fact, if they do build dedicated facilities, it will be a big step forward for all gallery-rifle and practical disciplines in the UK.

It's heartening that the UKPSA may have realised it's going to be better for the sport if everyone works together towards common goal.

It's disheartening that there are still plenty of doom-merchants around the forums who can't accept change might be positive and spend their time spreading MUD (misinformation, uncertainty, doubt) around presumably because of political motivation or some sort of misplaced loyalty towards those who feel hard done by.

When have we EVER heard even the faintest possibility of dedicated practical facilities being build at Bisley? Until now, never. So, we have the chance of seeing some PROGRESS!

FFS why can't you all see we might actually have a brighter future if we all WORK TOGETHER TO MAKE IT HAPPEN!

John MH wrote: There are potentially better things to invest NRA their (the members) capital in in the short to medium, term.

Better, from who's perspective? Who says they aren't investing in those things as well?

John MH wrote: Given a choice I would suggest the membership would need some significant persuasion to invest in IPSC facilities when upgrades to rifle target systems are more of a concern.

I don't believe the membership need to be persuaded of anything. The NRA can and do spend their money without consultation already, so why would that change?

John MH wrote: If the cost is borne out of the surplus profits made from TS events then that would go a long way to convince the membership that this is the way to go in directly supporting that discipline based on the size of the participation at Bisley.

When TS is the primary discipline of less than 50 individual NRA members I still struggle to see how this representative of the NRA membership's wishes or needs.

All those PSG shooters sitting on the sidelines waiting to see the outcome, why don’t you show your support for the NRA bid by joining the NRA.

Who says they haven't? Where do you get the figure "50" from? Maybe you'd find more TS shooters would join the NRA and shoot at Bisley if there were better facilities to shoot TS/PSG there?

If it was all down to which primary discipline members entered into their details, the NRA would have to put all their efforts behind TR shooting, wouldn't they? TS is growing in the same way that CSR has been. Luckily for you CSR has reasonably good facilities at Bisley and can put on some good matches. Now you are seeing how that has affected entries. The same thing can happen with TS, given a chance.

The Cupcake Kid wrote:

John MH wrote: There are potentially better things to invest NRA their (the members) capital in in the short to medium, term.

Better, from who's perspective? Who says they aren't investing in those things as well?

Shooters who support the NRA, are NRA members and currently use the facilities at Bisley

John MH wrote: Given a choice I would suggest the membership would need some significant persuasion to invest in IPSC facilities when upgrades to rifle target systems are more of a concern.

I don't believe the membership need to be persuaded of anything. The NRA can and do spend their money without consultation already, so why would that change?

The membership are the NRA, they should have a say in where NRA funds are spent and what direction the NRA should move in.

John MH wrote: If the cost is borne out of the surplus profits made from TS events then that would go a long way to convince the membership that this is the way to go in directly supporting that discipline based on the size of the participation at Bisley.

When TS is the primary discipline of less than 50 individual NRA members I still struggle to see how this representative of the NRA membership's wishes or needs.

All those PSG shooters sitting on the sidelines waiting to see the outcome, why don’t you show your support for the NRA bid by joining the NRA.

Who says they haven't? Where do you get the figure "50" from? Maybe you'd find more TS shooters would join the NRA and shoot at Bisley if there were better facilities to shoot TS/PSG there?

It’s actually 49 individual members who have selected TS as their primary discipline, the figure was supplied by the NRA Membership Department. Why don’t TS shooters join the NRA in advance of any developments or take overs, they are all sitting on the fence waiting to see. There are far more NRA members who shoot other disciplines and enter NRA events than specifically TS. I’m sure they would prefer to see the investment they have made in supporting the NRA being put into maintaining and upgrading rifle shooting facilities rather than a very niche PSG facility. Of course if there were actually more TS shooters in the NRA they would rightly expect that their needs were addressed in proportion to their contribution.

If it was all down to which primary discipline members entered into their details, the NRA would have to put all their efforts behind TR shooting, wouldn't they? TS is growing in the same way that CSR has been. Luckily for you CSR has reasonably good facilities at Bisley and can put on some good matches. Now you are seeing how that has affected entries. The same thing can happen with TS, given a chance.

IPSC has nothing to do with CSR, CSR shooters use the same facilities as Target Rifle/Match Rifle/F Class/Historic etc, the clue is in the word 'Rifle'.

If the IPSC bid is successful I hope it all works out for the PSG crowd, it will have no impact on the majority of the NRA membership unless stupid overzealous rule makers decide that they would like more control of anything that involves anything vaguely 'Practical' just as the UKPSA has tried to promote itself in the UK.

The Cupcake Kid wrote:Maybe you'd find more TS shooters would join the NRA and shoot at Bisley if there were better facilities to shoot TS/PSG there?

NOPE

Not travelling from Edinburgh to Bisley to shoot TS - anything from 8 to 10 hours each way, depending on traffic congestion/roadworks & rest stops - when I can drive to about 4 current TS/PSG venues within 2 hours of my house....with another couple due to set up this year within an hours drive.

Past NRA escapades & their Home Counties centric/old school tie network focus on TR type events BASED SOLELY AT BISLEY CAMP, to the detriment of the rest of UK shooting sports, mean that any potential tale over of IPSC will have a similar effect to the pistol ban; but from within the sport, as the result of an administrative NRA initiative.

Yet again, an NRA scheme based on shooting at Bisley is on the cards; how about some NRA scheme for the regions? Something that is long past due to happen...but chances are never will happen, as "the regions" exist as some sort of hinterland that the NRA categorise as "out of sight, out of mind" - so keep on keeping on & add to the Bisley site to bring in more ££££

Given the limited information that has been and can be made available at this stage, isn't a bit shortsighted for us to be trying to second guess what the NRA are trying to do? As I have said before, I would be disappointed if the IPSC appointed the NRA to run operations in the Uk if there wasn't going to be a SIGNIFICANT improvement in practical shooting across the WHOLE of the UK. How they do it we don't know and will just have to wait and see.

For all you NRA bashers, consider this; you all deride the NRA for being TR orientated, yet they have got involved in TS, are looking at the IPSC issue and have agreed that they need to do more in the regions and move away from TR. Be patient, Rome wasn't built in a day. Get behind them, join!

Mike357 wrote:Get behind them, join!

Yeap, if you PSG shooters really want the NRA to take over this IPSC thing show your support and join the NRA.

As someone with no knowledge of IPSC/UKPSA/PSG etc, can someone explain to me why the NRA taking over management of the discipline's rulebook means all shooting everywhere except Bisley will stop overnight?

It shouldn't as most of the IPSC thing is total bureaucratic tosh.

It’s only really relevant of PSG shooters who wish to compete abroad in IPSC matches, it’s not going to have any effect on the common club shooter who is just out to have fun. It may benefit the very few PSG shooters at the very top of their game and resolve the shotgunners current personality infighting which has led to the expulsion of some competitors from the current governing body thereby preventing them from competing in IPSC matches aboard where home country the regional body is required to endorse the shooter entry.

John MH wrote:Shooters who support the NRA, are NRA members and currently use the facilities at Bisley

That includes me. I shoot shotgun and rifle disciplines, the same as you. I want to see investment and improvement in all areas. You seem to be saying the NRA should be investing money in rifle disciplines over shotgun. Why? Shouldn't every type of shooting have decent facilities?

John MH wrote: The membership are the NRA, they should have a say in where NRA funds are spent and what direction the NRA should move in.[/b]

Well, they (we) don't most of the time. Maybe that's for the best, because we might find the most active, politically motivated members get their way at the detriment of others? Maybe things should be changed so we do have more of a say? Who knows? It is what it is and we have to accept that those currently in charge are working and investing in the best interests of the members. Time will tell.

John MH wrote: It’s actually 49 individual members who have selected TS as their primary discipline, the figure was supplied by the NRA Membership Department. Why don’t TS shooters join the NRA in advance of any developments or take overs, they are all sitting on the fence waiting to see. There are far more NRA members who shoot other disciplines and enter NRA events than specifically TS. I’m sure they would prefer to see the investment they have made in supporting the NRA being put into maintaining and upgrading rifle shooting facilities rather than a very niche PSG facility. Of course if there were actually more TS shooters in the NRA they would rightly expect that their needs were addressed in proportion to their contribution.

This is the same membership department who hasn't updated changes submitted by their members for several weeks. I've tried to change my primary to TS twice since Christmas, but the change hasn't been updated, so it's bad data. As I've said before, I'm sure a lot of members just list the disciplines they shoot in random order because they don't know or don't care what their "primary discipline" is. So you can't say from that number how many TS shooters are members, but it's certainly more than 49. Having said that, you are correct that TS is in the minority, but that it not a reason not to invest in it. It is a growing discipline and that means it should be supported.

John MH wrote: IPSC has nothing to do with CSR, CSR shooters use the same facilities as Target Rifle/Match Rifle/F Class/Historic etc, the clue is in the word 'Rifle'.

You are distinguishing between IPSC facilities and rifle facilities, I'm not. They are all 'shooting' facilities and the NRA should be supporting, encouraging and investing in all of them. Their motto is "Promoting Target Shooting Throughout the United Kingdom" after all.

Now I know a lot of you don't believe they have that agenda and they certainly didn't in the past, but they are changing so we need to see what this proposal will bring and that's going to mean waiting until we see details of the proposal.

As for comments such as "I'm not travelling 10 hours to Bisley to shoot a L2 match" - again, you don't know what the IPSC proposal contains and how the NRA intend to run it, so why not carry on as you have been with the UKPSA and see what the bid brings? It might all stay the same if the IPSC don't accept the bid.