The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

The fundamental issue seems to be that you cannot purchase or acquire a firearm unless you have authority to possess, purchase is buying acquiring could be given or lent. To send someone money for a firearm without a slot on your ticket for same is breaking the law even although you don't actually have the firearm in your possession conversely it is illegal to sell, accept money for a firearm you are selling unless you are certain that the purchaser has appropriate permissions on their FAC to buy said firearm.

For those in shooting prior to '97 will remember this is how we went about it. Saw something in GunMart, called and did the deal, sent off your ticket and it would be sent back with your gun in the ordinary mail, straight to you...

There was a case where a criminal did get hold of a certificate, murdered the owner of a number of pistols who he'd organised to meet and stole the said pistols. He then went on to attempt the same and a legitimate owner ended up in a gun fight with the murderer in his own home!

If memory serves the victim was a town planner in Ramsgate or somewhere and the murderer has only recently been released from prison. This was one of the reasons why face-to-face transfers and the outlawing of mail order came about with the '97 Amendment Act.

Despite the very subjective and somewhat ridiculous view of what represents a "sale", the system per se, worked quite well, with "racketeering" by a small number of dealers left aside. So who has created about this? A pedant in the Home Office, a misguided representative or a small minded dealer?

Whoever it was, firearms commerce has taken another smack...

I suspect that this reared it head again when the RFDnet company was trying to establish its transfer network and they were talking with the police, HO and the trade. I am surprised how the trade has embraced this and were instrumental in the interpretation of the law that has lead to this coming to pass. One could be scurrilous and say that perhaps there was an agenda there but that would be pure speculation for which there is no evidence or basis other than healthy cynicism based on decades of experience.

It will be interesting to see how the auction houses respond to this, no bidding on firearms unless you provide proof that you already have authority to acquire/purchase the firearm you are bidding upon?

dromia wrote:It will be interesting to see how the auction houses respond to this, no bidding on firearms unless you provide proof that you already have authority to acquire/purchase the firearm you are bidding upon?

Wave your FAC to make a bid?

dromia wrote:The fundamental issue seems to be that you cannot purchase or acquire a firearm unless you have authority to possess, purchase is buying acquiring could be given or lent. To send someone money for a firearm without a slot on your ticket for same is breaking the law even although you don't actually have the firearm in your possession conversely it is illegal to sell, accept money for a firearm you are selling unless you are certain that the purchaser has appropriate permissions on their FAC to buy said firearm.

Wasn't this the basis of the current (now old?) way of doing a remote transfer though (other than the security risk the 'official' method presents). i.e. Because it was going to the purchasers RFD, the gun is effectively bought by the purchaser 'for' the RFD who obviously has authority to own the gun, then the person who ponied up the dough has to prove authority to take possession?

Buyer gives money for gun to seller, and firearm is sent to RFD
RFD signs gun onto their books and is in possession of it
Buyer goes to RFD and pays transfer fee to take possession of it once authority to do so has been verified by RFD
Both parties inform their police force of the transaction

What could be safer than that/where is the flaw that the HO is seeking to address??

It'll be interesting to see how this starts to pan out once gun owners actually find out about it. I think the only way I'd use this method would be to sent my FAC to the sellers RFD and have them fill it in there and then in the premises in the presence of the RFD, and then have the RFD return the FAC with the gun (or post it separately if that's required). Still well iffy.

No one said they were trying to address a flaw, it is just that the way the acts are written this how it must be to comply with the (f)law. Now you couldn't have the Home Office and the police tacitly aiding and abetting in the breaking of the law now could you?

Am I doing it right tomorrow ?

A buyer has sent payment for a FAC SHOTGUN from me.
He has not got a spare slot on his ticket yet but he wants me to transfer the gun to his RDF who will hold it until he has the variation.
Is this ok ?
Will the RFD have some type of Certificate for me to enter it on when they arrive here or do I just take a copy of his RDF and inform my police and his police ?

bofor wrote:Am I doing it right tomorrow ?

A buyer has sent payment for a FAC SHOTGUN from me.
He has not got a spare slot on his ticket yet but he wants me to transfer the gun to his RDF who will hold it until he has the variation.
Is this ok ?
Will the RFD have some type of Certificate for me to enter it on when they arrive here or do I just take a copy of his RDF and inform my police and his police ?

Legally you cannot sell a firearm to someone without the relevant slot. At this point in time you can only sell it to the RFD.

If you transfer it to an RFD then all you need to do is to notify your own firearms department where the firearm is.
The RFD will enter it on to his own register.

christel wrote:

bofor wrote:Am I doing it right tomorrow ?

A buyer has sent payment for a FAC SHOTGUN from me.
He has not got a spare slot on his ticket yet but he wants me to transfer the gun to his RDF who will hold it until he has the variation.
Is this ok ?
Will the RFD have some type of Certificate for me to enter it on when they arrive here or do I just take a copy of his RDF and inform my police and his police ?

Legally you cannot sell a firearm to someone without the relevant slot. At this point in time you can only sell it to the RFD.

If you transfer it to an RFD then all you need to do is to notify your own firearms department where the firearm is.
The RFD will enter it on to his own register.

Thanks Christel
I know you can`t sell to anyone without the correct slot, just wanted to check about the RFD part, if he will have a " RFD type" of FAC certificate for me to fill in.

bofor wrote:

christel wrote:

bofor wrote:Am I doing it right tomorrow ?

A buyer has sent payment for a FAC SHOTGUN from me.
He has not got a spare slot on his ticket yet but he wants me to transfer the gun to his RDF who will hold it until he has the variation.
Is this ok ?
Will the RFD have some type of Certificate for me to enter it on when they arrive here or do I just take a copy of his RDF and inform my police and his police ?

Legally you cannot sell a firearm to someone without the relevant slot. At this point in time you can only sell it to the RFD.

If you transfer it to an RFD then all you need to do is to notify your own firearms department where the firearm is.
The RFD will enter it on to his own register.

Thanks Christel
I know you can`t sell to anyone without the correct slot, just wanted to check about the RFD part, if he will have a " RFD type" of FAC certificate for me to fill in.

No, you just hand it over, get a receipt:)