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MistAgain wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:19 pm I store guns at a club. I take some of them on my non-shooting day home. I do some kind of maintenance, and put them back on the same day. - quite normal i do this all the time & with club guns i just take them home & store alongside my own

Now that is interesting .
This is actual fact : Member leaves Taurus LBR at club , locked up with club guns .
Police visit club and find Taurus while checking club guns .
Police opinion was that it should have been stored with the RFD's guns and listed on their register .
FAC was revoked .

The clubs FAC or the members? (Or both?)

In terms of 'access' surely only the person with the clubs FAC should have access to be able to 'check out' the clubs guns to allow members to use them?

You seem to differentiate between 'club' guns and RFD guns? As in guns for use by the club and those for sale?

Blackstuff wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 11:08 am

MistAgain wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:19 pm I store guns at a club. I take some of them on my non-shooting day home. I do some kind of maintenance, and put them back on the same day. - quite normal i do this all the time & with club guns i just take them home & store alongside my own

Now that is interesting .
This is actual fact : Member leaves Taurus LBR at club , locked up with club guns .
Police visit club and find Taurus while checking club guns .
Police opinion was that it should have been stored with the RFD's guns and listed on their register .
FAC was revoked .

The clubs FAC or the members? (Or both?)

In terms of 'access' surely only the person with the clubs FAC should have access to be able to 'check out' the clubs guns to allow members to use them?

You seem to differentiate between 'club' guns and RFD guns? As in guns for use by the club and those for sale?

A good number of my members can access the club guns in the club cabinet. Not just the FC holder. This is an important distinction & why e.g a club FAC does not require a medical ref as the holder is only the nominated person for the FAC not the sole person with access or use.
I think the point is an LBP/LBR isn't a club gun & cant be one under HO club approval rules - that covers rifle, muzzle loading rifle & pistol (not shotgun, Sect5 or LBP/LBR) - if all three are on the clubs approval as many are just approved for rifles.

MistAgain wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:19 pm I store guns at a club. I take some of them on my non-shooting day home. I do some kind of maintenance, and put them back on the same day. - quite normal i do this all the time & with club guns i just take them home & store alongside my own

The club guns thing is a little used or understood exemption to the need for an FAC. A full HO club member can take club guns and ammo for club purposes, be that cleaning, shooting away etc. even if they do not hold an FAC.

Now that is interesting .
This is actual fact : Member leaves Taurus LBR at club , locked up with club guns .
Police visit club and find Taurus while checking club guns .
Police opinion was that it should have been stored with the RFD's guns and listed on their register .
FAC was revoked .

The LBP/R is a different thing altogether. Clubs cannot have LBP/R on their FAC and as there is no approval by the HO for LBP/R clubs the club exemption from the need to have an FAC to handle firearms is not relevant in this instance. As any club full member could have access to the club locker and the club's firearms they could get access to the pistol as well. Stopping unauthorised access is a condition of an FAC. Most likely a legitimate revocation.

Thank you all. It seems "reasonable precautions" is the common theme, and I mean I'm not against it in principle, but I just think that sometimes the smartest people with the best intentions could disagree what constitutes "reasonable". I'd personally prefer a set of strict rules to be honest, although I realize that you can't predict every situation ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. But I guess it is what it is, thanks for describing your experiences I'll keep them in mind when/if I'll face one of such problems.

Btw, as for "Firearms security handbook 2020" - thanks, I've read it before* and it was a very interesting reading (a lot of concretes and examples), but sadly it mostly covers how to store firearms in the "default" way, not in those exceptional moments.

* full disclosure, I did not read it whole, I've read the parts applicable for individuals and only skimmed through the rest as I'm not planning to become an RFD or deal with Section 5 stuff any time soon

Owning firearms is a responsibility.

Seeking to absolve that responsibility to a third party rule maker is not assuming that responsibility

It requires you to be able to reasonably assess risk and take steps to mitigate that risk with firearms in your possession.

Unless you are prepared for that responsibility and feel able to reasonably secure your firearms in any situation then firearms ownership is not for you.

There are far too many micro rules and regulations being applied to firearms ownership none of which contribute to public safety and, as you say, will never cover every situation. There will always be exceptions.

So be careful what you wish for.

If the responsibility of owning firearms is too onerous for you then move on to something else.

Also moderator slots on your certificate is not a "trick" it is a legitimate variation request.

Mattnall wrote: ↑Thu Feb 23, 2023 1:12 pm

The LBP/R is a different thing altogether. Clubs cannot have LBP/R on their FAC and as there is no approval by the HO for LBP/R clubs the club exemption from the need to have an FAC to handle firearms is not relevant in this instance. As any club full member could have access to the club locker and the club's firearms they could get access to the pistol as well. Stopping unauthorised access is a condition of an FAC. Most likely a legitimate revocation.
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Club members did not have access to the club firearms storage .

MistAgain wrote: ↑Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:53 am Club members did not have access to the club firearms storage .

But at least one person had access, and if that person (and anyone else that also may have had access) did not have that particular pistol on their FAC then it would be an issue.
Possible defence if the owner of the pistol was around and the person with access had LBP/R on their FAC but that would be a different exemption and not as straight forward.

Surely if the club is also an RFD the the club cert holder can take possession of an LBR/LBP without it being listed on their own FAC? Otherwise how would they ever get them in for sale?

The RFD would be able to take and store/hold the pistol in accordance with their registration and conditions relating to storage. I doubt then other club members would have access to the storage, I would think the RFD stored firearms would be in a different store to the club firearms if others (non-RFD servants) had access.

Besides Mistagain mentioned the pistol should have been stored with the RFD guns and not in the club store with the club's guns. I can only think that others besides the RFD and servants would then have had access so that is the issue.
The police may have been looking at any excuse to take action. Other forces may have been a bit more lenient depending upon the reason given as to why it was stored like this.

I dont understand why a FAC holder would get a variation for a long barrel pistol then want to store it at a Club.