The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

We're up against two very good arguments from the antis at the moment.

Need: This one seems (in my limited experience, YMMV) to come up from people in Scotland. I was talking to a Scottish girl in her 20s from a family of shooters the other day. She's not a shooter herself, although she's tried it and describes herself as "not anti-shooting". Yet she thinks nobody "needs" a gun and that's good enough grounds to impose a general ban, despite acknowledging that her own family were perfectly safe and responsible, along with having first-hand experience of ranges and safety rules herself.

The gas oven argument: Years ago lots of people committed suicide by sticking their head in the oven and turning the gas on. We changed the type of gas we used; suicide rates fell. The antis' argument goes that by removing firearms from society altogether we will lower the suicide rate and make everything "safer". Flip side, by legalising anything we raise that risk and it's too great a risk to take, in the antis' little minds.

I can just about fight the second argument (suicide with licensed firearms is vanishingly tiny) but I don't really have an answer to the first. I guess there's the competition argument (UK as a whole is pretty damn good at target rifle on the international stage - not sure about other disciplines as I don't follow them so closely) in our favour...

What I'm getting at is that a slim majority of people aren't hardcore antis, like members and voters of the Labour party are. They're mostly ordinary folk who are suspicious of things they've only seen used in TV and films to cause harm. How do we win them over? How do we change their views and get Joe Public to support (or at least not campaign against) repealing the pistol ban?

Gaz wrote:We're up against two very good arguments from the antis at the moment.

Need: This one seems (in my limited experience, YMMV) to come up from people in Scotland. I was talking to a Scottish girl in her 20s from a family of shooters the other day. She's not a shooter herself, although she's tried it and describes herself as "not anti-shooting". Yet she thinks nobody "needs" a gun and that's good enough grounds to impose a general ban, despite acknowledging that her own family were perfectly safe and responsible, along with having first-hand experience of ranges and safety rules herself.

The gas oven argument: Years ago lots of people committed suicide by sticking their head in the oven and turning the gas on. We changed the type of gas we used; suicide rates fell. The antis' argument goes that by removing firearms from society altogether we will lower the suicide rate and make everything "safer". Flip side, by legalising anything we raise that risk and it's too great a risk to take, in the antis' little minds.

I can just about fight the second argument (suicide with licensed firearms is vanishingly tiny) but I don't really have an answer to the first. I guess there's the competition argument (UK as a whole is pretty damn good at target rifle on the international stage - not sure about other disciplines as I don't follow them so closely) in our favour...

What I'm getting at is that a slim majority of people aren't hardcore antis, like members and voters of the Labour party are. They're mostly ordinary folk who are suspicious of things they've only seen used in TV and films to cause harm. How do we win them over? How do we change their views and get Joe Public to support (or at least not campaign against) repealing the pistol ban?

Agreed - the need one feels a tad awkawrd for sport, wheras justifying a firearm as a working tool feels like an easier argument to make. Perhaps instead of arguing "need" - we argue "safe" instead?

So by that I mean - challenge the assertion that there must be a need, it suggests there's a general presumption that shooting is to be discouraged by confining it to the selected few (few hundred thousand FAC and million SGC IIRC?) instead of opening it up to anyone and everyone who can be determined to be safe and competent (by some method TBC).

Need?

Football
Baseball
Fast cars

I am sure the list is endless, those three all have many deaths associated.

"Need"? My guns have nothing to do with need. I have them because I want them. There is no need. My desire is my cause.

The antis may think that not having need is reason enough to ban, likewise, the antis may be involved in something that I find abhorrent, may I elect to have their "practice" banned? Personally, I would love to see alcohol outlawed. No drug has ever killed more people than alcohol or caused more people to be killed...... The only people who "need" alcohol are the addicts.. Dirty little "beer junkies".

Sim G wrote:"Need"? My guns have nothing to do with need. I have them because I want them. There is no need. My desire is my cause.

And I agree with that sentiment entirely, but given the way that licensing is handled in this country I wouldn't feel comfortable arguing that with my forces FEO's.

But then as I said I'd like to see "need" dropped from the firearms act's entirely, let us be honest about want!

The only people who "need" alcohol are the addicts.. Dirty little "beer junkies".

I have a few beers sometimes. ( nothing to do with need. I have them because I want them. There is no need. My desire is my cause ) .

ordnance wrote:

The only people who "need" alcohol are the addicts.. Dirty little "beer junkies".

I have a few bears sometimes. ( nothing to do with need. I have them because I want them. There is no need. My desire is my cause ) .

Do you arm your bears in your time of need?

Gaz in terms of the need argument, it's quite simple, no one needs anything except food, water and shelter, the rest of what we have is for all intents and purposes a form of luxury that we can do without if push came to shove.

To be fair I don't think he (Gaz) agrees with "need" - but, it's in the legislation and that's also the anti's argument - "you don't NEED..."

Perhaps we feed this back to the various national bodies, at least let them know what we think? In fact I'll do just that.

Some good posts on this, especially from Sim & Gaz.

"Private assessment of fitness", well guys and gals, if ATOS do it there is probably no chance of you getting a FAC this side of anything.

"Need", "want" how about "inalienable RIGHT" with the associated responsibility? Why are laws to deter criminals aimed at the law abiding? In fact why licence the law abiding at all, they have PROVEN to be law abiding?

No law will stop crime, we have hundreds of laws about guns and killings and violence etc and Sim has been attending to those that ignore them for 25 years of his life - so more LAWS are just so much more nonsense. New Labour brought in over 3000 new laws, anyone seen any benefit from that, nope.

Easily Concealed: That's irrelevant. A hacksaw makes any gun concealable as does a long coat or some types of "traditional dress"!

The old GCN red herring about "if it prevented ONE person from being killed" lament - nahh. You could actually say that about having a gun for defence, "if it saved just ONE life it would be worth it" - and there are no doubt many cases to back that up.

Take the US out of the comparison equation, totally different mindset there and it is a RIGHT guaranteed by their 2nd Amendment (so far). Why are they always in the news? Maybe because they are so rare compared to car crashes, stabbings, strangulations, etc etc. It's easier to get people excited by these reports because their is an agenda behind it. They (Americans) panic big time and wage war when someone blows up a building or a marathon, we wet ourselves over any event where a gun is used / misused but carry on fine when things get blown up IRA style.

Comparison to UK: My missus has a handgun for home defence and shotguns for defence and sport. She is allowed 6 guns in total. Try this process for size:

Apply to police for permit to buy, show ID card and they do background report and application to buy. Pop over to council office and have the council LEADER stamp it. Hand back to police. Get doctors report: then travel some 50 miles to nearest centre for shrink report, have them send it to police. Police open file (again) and double check, permit to buy is issued. Acquire gun of choice, usually from the government directly. Physically take gun to police office where it is recorded on file, whilst you wait you get photo'd by the police and have your dabs taken. They are considering a ballistics sample to be kept on file. You then get a wee plastic card stating the gun in question for handguns, shotguns for now are paper certificates.

Ammo: Shotgun: unlimited, slug, bird/buck readily available over the counter. Capacity of shotgun, whatever you want. No S1/S5 nonsense although minimum barrel length is 18" and it can have a folding stock whether it's a pump or semi - though the news media think a pump is akin to a 105mm mortar. Hers was originally a 20" 7+1 pump with folding skeleton stock. Reloading shotgun shells allowed.

Handgun: You get 200 rounds a YEAR and that's it-and NO reloading, that's a jailable offence.

Ranges, you'll be lucky: gun MUST be kept at home, it's for home defence. If you want to transport your handgun to another town you need a permit. Carry for defence: certain occupations only and for those who are "in the know"! A few clay ranges about but few and far between. Many locals go to the forest, drink raqi and use the empties for targets! sign01

Air rifles: 1500FPS .177 break barrel over the counter no issues. 30ft/lb .22 everywhere.

Forward venting blank firers, YES, in black - orange muzzle.

Guns on flights: No worries, just go to the wee desk marked FIREARMS (in Turkish of course) with unloaded gun and permit, check it in and collect at the other end. No paranoia.

Training: ZERO! None required to own a handgun!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! there are hunting clubs though, the Mrs is in it.

Moderators: OOOOHHH, go straight to jail - only assassins have them!

Mass / school shootings: nil! Murders, yes of course. Criminals with guns, of course!

Semi auto full bore, not sure, I think not unless you know someone or have been armed by the government as some village militia.! Full auto/select fire: NOT LEGAL!!!

Ammo: 9mm probably now about £1.00 a bang!

http://www.mkek.gov.tr/tr/SilahSatisUrunler.aspx

.308Win $2.89 +18% VAT EACH!

How does that grab you!