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Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:49 am
by JSC
Rarms wrote:
...3.2 Those weapons and ammunition, which are prohibited, consist of:
iii) any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than
60 centimetres in length overall, ... (section 5(1)(aba));...
Thanks for that. That seems pretty clear and after doing a bit more Googling, I'm getting a better picture of where we are now.
From what I can glean, the Merkle and Europa LBRs were possibly manufactured using frame kits from S&W. If not and they were manufactured from stock S&W revolvers, they got into the country and are registered as Sec 1 due to customs/border control/local forces either turning a blind eye or not understanding the technicalities.
So my take on the situation as it applies to this thread is that it may be possible to do the same with a (genuine) Glock modified to be Sec. 1 IF the U.S. gunsmith has a way to obtain Glock frame kits OR if everyone involved in bringing it into the UK is willing to take a risk that the letter of law won't be followed.
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:54 am
by Tony-c
if the firearm enters the UK in a form that satisfies UK section 1 firearms law then surely thats all that matters
how can you apply the section 5 ruling to a firearm when its in another country? and where sec. 5 means nothing
its not section 5 until it hits UK waters/borders
in my mind its simple,
when the firearm enters the UK, does it comply to UK Sec. 1 law? yes or no
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:07 am
by JSC
Not according to the wording of the law:
"2.58 Section 7(1)(a) of the 1988 Act (as amended by the 1997 Act) provides that if any weapon
has at any time been a weapon to which section 5(1) or 5(1A) of the 1968 Act applies,
it shall be treated as a prohibited weapon regardless of anything done for the purpose
of converting it into a weapon of a different kind."
"At any time" would be argued in court as meaning that regardless where it originated, if it began life with a barrel less than 30cm or overall length less than 60cm, it will always be regarded as Sec 5.
So I agree with Rarms and Mistagain in that unless the UK authorities can be convinced that your S&W or Glock has been built by an overseas gunsmith using a kit of parts, you are on shakey ground.
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:32 am
by Gh0st
So it all hinges on the frame only being supplied for the glock
Was there ever any issues with the Europas?
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:15 pm
by JSC
There was an old thread on here about the Europas. They were built by a company in Kentucky, so it's possible they had a supply of spare parts or frame kits from S&W. I know Richard Wilson has been trying for years to get an agreement, but that doesn't necessarily mean they didn't have agreements in place with other gunsmiths around the world.
Every other LBP/LBR I'm aware of (but I don't know all of them) came with a long barrel from the manufacturer, hence it wouldn't be a problem to them just stick on a coat hanger and make them UK legal.
I do think you're in the grey area here and if I were you I'd be looking for some written assurances from the RFD and your FEO before going too much further (if you haven't got them already).
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:55 pm
by MistAgain
Rarms wrote:Added an edit to my last post, and then typically found the last bit I was looking for, however put together the bits in bold below:
2.58 Section 7(1)(a) of the 1988 Act (as amended by the 1997 Act) provides that if any weapon
has at any time been a weapon to which section 5(1) or 5(1A) of the 1968 Act applies,
it shall be treated as a prohibited weapon regardless of anything done for the purpose
of converting it into a weapon of a different kind.
3.2 Those weapons and ammunition, which are prohibited, consist of:
iii) any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than
60 centimetres in length overall, ... (section 5(1)(aba));
3.3 Note that the component parts of weapons falling under 5(1)(a), 5(1A)(a) or 5(1)(aba) are
also subject to section 5 controls (see also Chapter 13).
13.74 The term “component part” may be held (according to case law) as including (i) the barrel,
chamber, cylinder, (ii) frame, body or receiver, (iii) breech, block, bolt or other mechanism
for containing the charge at the rear of the chamber (iv), any other part of the firearm upon
which the pressure caused by firing the weapon impinges directly. Magazines, sights and
furniture are not considered component parts. The 9th report of the Firearms Consultative
Committee provides additional information on this subject.
Way back in the early 90's I was offered a straight pull M14 by a gunsmith in USA .
I applied for a variation and was "invited" for an interview at my local firearms registry .
I explained to them that it was a new build from component parts that had never been a completed firearm .
As they were happy with this I was granted the variation on the spot (!) , but with the warning that is any part was found to be from a
self loading M14 , I would loose the rifle and may be in trouble .
A few weeks later the rifle arrived and was seized by the police for "tests" . It was later returned to me as ok and was then sent for proofing .
More slightly up to date , I was offered a custom built Colt Python , 12 inch barrel and rod , but built on an existing Python .
A quick phone call to the firearms registry and I was told roughly what RARMS has posted , but with the addition that if it had been a section 5 in "any jurisdiction" it was prohibited here .
So I dont have a Custom Python . But I still have my FAC .
If this new Glock has a non Glock Frame , Barrel and Slide , it will probably go on my wish list .
But if it has a Glock frame , I would not risk my money and my FAC .
And I am suprised that a reputable RFD would risk his licence , unless he can afford the risk of a Court case .
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:12 pm
by joe
Parts bin thing - take a section 5 gun apart, use the parts to build another gun that conforms to section one (no such thing as section 5 parts ) that's how those straight pull slr's were built
Anyway i suspect the police will be all over it to double check as they hate police guns (even .22lr) in the hands of private citizens
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:20 pm
by Sim G
joe wrote:Parts bin thing - take a section 5 gun apart, use the parts to build another gun that conforms to section one (no such thing as section 5 parts ) that's how those straight pull slr's were built
That would be illegal...
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:21 pm
by Sim G
BTW, there are a plethora of brand new Glock frames/lowers for sale on Gunbroker...
Re: New LBP coming to the UK hopefully
Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:10 pm
by bradaz11
Sim G wrote:“Registered” has nothing to do with it. Primary legislation is actually quite simple. If the “weapon” has ever been of a prohibited type, then it is always prohibited, no matter what is done. Case law has now decreed that component parts are also a firearm, hence the bolt from a semi AR15 would be s5, but a bolt that has only ever existed as itself or part of a straight pull, is s1. This is exactly why we have straight pull military, s1 firearms in the UK, that have been constructed from “parts”.
There is case law where individuals have made full auto guns in their garage and were convicted of s5 possession. Registration is moot.
to clear up a possible misunderstanding. I mean registered when it is in the USA etc, not anything to do with the UK...