The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

MoD gives the safety trace length for combat shotgun / slug as over 600 metres with max 70 mil elevation. If your UKPSA official designs you a layout that has a safety trace of those sort of dimennsions, it's probably OK. Bigger question: are you insured on such a shoot? I suspect not unless you are a UKPSA member, but I'm not in a position to check my facts.

Iain

No PSG course/venue (with the possible exception of Diggle Range) offers that kind of safety trace length (fallout area??). There is simply a huge back stop, usually a 50m high quarry wall!

Re; the 'qualified' member of UKPSA, it would make sense to ditch/reword that condition as there has never been a definition (AFAIK) of what 'qualified' means - Been on the UKPSA RO course? Shot for more than x number of years? etc etc

I might be completely wide of the mark here and I'm honestly not trying to stir, but could the wording of the conditions to allow possession of a S1 shotgun have anything to do with the fact that the UKPSA is run by people with strong links to the Police?

There are plenty of reasons to own a S1 shotgun these days so why does the UKPSA need to be involved or mentioned in the conditions?

The Cupcake Kid wrote:There are plenty of reasons to own a S1 shotgun these days so why does the UKPSA need to be involved or mentioned in the conditions?

Possibly as for a while they were the only organisation DOING such shooting, so they were the ones that were named

The Cupcake Kid wrote:I might be completely wide of the mark here and I'm honestly not trying to stir, but could the wording of the conditions to allow possession of a S1 shotgun have anything to do with the fact that the UKPSA is run by people with strong links to the Police?

LOTS of folk ON this forum ARE police - ask THEM how much influence that connection has with their sport!?!?!?

Wide of the mark = just a tad.
Take the number you first thought of and divide by zero...

Blackstuff wrote:No PSG course/venue (with the possible exception of Diggle Range) offers that kind of safety trace length (fallout area??). There is simply a huge back stop, usually a 50m high quarry wall!

Re; the 'qualified' member of UKPSA, it would make sense to ditch/reword that condition as there has never been a definition (AFAIK) of what 'qualified' means - Been on the UKPSA RO course? Shot for more than x number of years? etc etc

A layout in a quarry should be fine as long as the wall is high enough. Now if the layout is 100 metres long, and the max ricochet angle is taken as 30 degress, you do indeed need a 50m (165 feet) vertical back wall. That's quite a big quarry.

I would read 'qualified' as 'qualified by UKPSA to undertake layout design' which I understand is an element of the RO training package.

With regards .410 slug.

As DM pointed out and Sandgroper also knows, I looked at bringing the T14 over for this reason, suffice to say there was an underwhelming lack of support from some areas, extreme prejudice (especially from one police region who shall remain nameless) plus a few other factors that led me to say it - not worth the hassle.

The UKPSA thing was thrown up time and time again (I think they were contacted but since it wasn't a 12/20 they weren't interested ) and in short, it was"not proper" as only 12/20g was "suitable..It would not count in Comps but a whole UK wide series was devised for it and to be fair some clubs did show a good interest whilst others could not see past their 12bores...!

The wide differences of opinion and acceptance from the police was scandalous..talk about paranoia..There was also some to-do about ranges..seemingly a range suitable for a .308 was not suitable for a .410slug...

As I said, a whole competition was designed, the plan being to run it across the UK with a special deal being available on the T14 e.g extra mags, box etc etc.. - actual prizes were planned etc etc . As I said, I binned the idea due to being screwed around at both ends!.

As for the .410 / 36cal slug, well it packs a wee punch compared to a 12g slug which is like an aerodynamic fishing weight. As for knocking over a steel plate, depends on how the plates are set up.

I use my T14 here as a substitute for the 5.56 AR semi auto I cannot have - but the T14 is seriously ammo sensitive as it was not designed around a specific cartridge. IT is not able to feed just any make or type of .410/36 - do not listen to anyone who says otherwise.

A T14 is NOT necessarily a .410 so get that clear if you ever want to buy one. The UK ones at the time were dual stamped 36 cal (down to the makers not understanding the UK system) / .410 and that caused a LOT of confusion and bad press so to speak. They are NOT the same thing when it comes to the T14....period...no matter what is stamped on the barrel /receiver. The mags are different for one thing and they will have serious feed / eject problems. In effect .410's went to the USA, 36cal came to Europe - even then there were ammo feed issues.

Here's a piccy of the effect of a .36cal slug fired from a T14 (the slug is YFS Turkish make) on 5mm steel plate compared to a 9mm FMJ 115gr round fired from a Beretta 92 - both at 25 yards
The barrel length would of course affect the velocity.....My T14 is an "M4 alike" with an 18" barrel and milspec polymer upper and lower..built for me by Safir. These are of course not on in the UK and the T14 would have come full UK spec.

I can't post a piccy of my T14 due to this pixel size stuff, what's wrong with a FILE size christel..easier for non techies like me.

Anyone wanting piccies email me and I'll send them.

In a nutshell, the .410 Safir WOULD have been a good fun gun for younger shooters and those of a smaller stature, that was the attraction of it. However there are alternative .410's that, if I were going that route I would look at in the UK - primarily due to the ammo issue.

Hope that helps.

Two types of slug fired from the T14 at 25 yards, iron sights. 2 shots each.
My T14

Blackstuff wrote: Re; the 'qualified' member of UKPSA, it would make sense to ditch/reword that condition as there has never been a definition (AFAIK) of what 'qualified' means - Been on the UKPSA RO course? Shot for more than x number of years? etc etc

correct, it would make sense to ditch that wording, its not relevent anymore and so open to interpettation and abuse/misuse that its worthless.

The problem is not enough people challenge it when it is applied to their licences and so the FeOs continue to apply it without a second thought.

Dangermouse wrote:James,

When the SAFIR AR style .410 was released a few years back CHUCK from the forum was interested in having them brought in to the country. At that time he could see that they would have had a purpose on the Target Shotgun comps as was ran at Bisley, at the time and he asked me to check the rules.
The rules may not have stated that .410 was not allowed but the entry forms certainly stated that it was a 12 gauge comp, maybe also 20 gauge.
Asking on the range confirmed that .410's could take part but their scores would not be counted etc. Looking at available ammunition at that time quickly raised the issue of cost, it would have been an expensive way forward for little reward.

You may want to check the wording on the entry forms and get it changed if necessary, but I have to say that from the start I believe that .410 should be in a class of its own.

DM

i will make this clear, i was not running the events until last summer.

After my election i immediately opened them up to .410's on an "honours only basis".

The First Edition of the TS rules specifically permit .410 shotguns in order to widen the appeal to all shooters.

There is/was no valid reason to prevent them from taking part.

If .410's dominate the shotgun events then they may well go into their own class BUT if that is the case then we will also have to enforce minimum energy levels for everyone else using a shotgun.
Comments please.

The Cupcake Kid wrote: There are plenty of reasons to own a S1 shotgun these days so why does the UKPSA need to be involved or mentioned in the conditions?

It doesnt, lots of info on this at four4islands.org