Suffolk Rifle shortened MP15-22 with/without over-barrel mod

[Mattnall]

So the forward assist is ok if the rifle is poorly made and doesn't function properly.

[nickb834]

HaHa - by that logic that means then that ALL AR-15's and M16's and M4's etc etc etc are crap (it's a joke - no need to point out that the first M16s didn't have a fwd assist!) *1

The forward assist is there for those edge cases when it doesn't fully go into battery, it could be dirt ingress, a knocked magazine (or one held onto whilst shooting a stage for eg - tut tut) a dirty rifle - anything, it's better to have a forward assist and not need it than t'other way round (caveated with - assuming having one doesn't cause problems).

Of course I'd rather not have to use it at all and I'd love MP 15-22 reliability - I just want it in a CMMG for reasons that seem good to me!

If we didn't have the rediculous ticket "slot" system in this country AND I was minted then I'd ask for a 4th rimfire slot and fill it with an MP 15-22 and probably one of Suffolks at that (to get back on topic) - but we do, and I'm not - so there we are!

1 - yes I am aware there are other uppers that don't have a fwd assist.

[AR15]

So the forward assist is ok if the rifle is poorly made and doesn't function properly.

Your question is leading.

The forward assist is a feature that allows you to deal with a stoppage in a quick and efficient manner. The stoppage is not necessarily due to the quality of the rifle that the forward assist is fitted to.
Stoppages occur for many reasons as, of course, you know.
As I already stated one of those reasons is angle of round delivery. This can be caused by a number of factors including dirt ingress under the extractor that stops the round from sliding up fully on the bolt, or wear to mag feed lips from constant use or damage. Or in the case of CMMG an inability to design a black mag that works properly.
While I found the forward assist useful for initial testing of CMMG's it did not require use after the rifle had been tuned to work properly.
Rather it was and is a useful feature to have, should some malfunction occur in the future for whatever reason.

Common, nose deformation stoppages on a .22LR Rimfire are different to stoppages on a .223/5.56 AR and I maintain that a forward assist is MORE useful on a 22 than a .223/5.56 rifle for these reasons.

As you are so vehemently opposed to these devices I presume any AR that you have built will have a hole where the thing should have been fitted, as inclusion must be a clear statement that the gun is poorly made and likely to fail?

[Mattnall]

A forward assist is not there to help with a stoppage, it is there to prevent a stoppage on a full-bore service.rifle.

it is also a military requirement and intended to stop you getting in trouble in a life-or-death situation.

if a 22lr round doesn't go fully in to battery on the range then the cause should be investigated and rectified rather than risk an oob discharge or compressing whatever may be preventing the bolt/round going duly home and then firing the round on top of it.

Some with less experience will disagree with me but I won't be standing next to you on the range so go ahead, Just make sure you have some way to compensate those around you in the off chance something goes wrong.

[safetyfirst]

It binned my forward assist adapter in my Cmmg and converted it with a catch 22 to use smith mags, it's flawlessly reliable now, can't tell you how many 10/22 stoppages I've seen on the competition line.

[nickb834]

A forward assist is not there to help with a stoppage, it is there to prevent a stoppage on a full-bore service.rifle.

it is also a military requirement and intended to stop you getting in trouble in a life-or-death situation.

if a 22lr round doesn't go fully in to battery on the range then the cause should be investigated and rectified rather than risk an oob discharge or compressing whatever may be preventing the bolt/round going duly home and then firing the round on top of it.

Some with less experience will disagree with me but I won't be standing next to you on the range so go ahead, Just make sure you have some way to compensate those around you in the off chance something goes wrong.

Sorry but that's complete and utter cr4p. Unfortuantely you've still failed to take note when I've talked about when it is and is not appropriate to forward assist - there is no need for a blanket ban on forward assists, they are perfectly safe when appropriate to use.

A forward assist is ENTIRELY to deal with stoppages that have ALREADY happened. It's for those edge cases where it just hasn't gone into battery, as it's far quicker to give it a quick tap than it is to mag off, rack the action and so on.

It's taught by the British Army for a fact, for use during stoppage drills (I've been on the receiving end of this training but I'm sure there's a JSP manual kicking about on the net where you can check this for yourself).

It aids you getting out of trouble in a life or death when the stoppage has HAPPENED - forward asssists do absolutely NOTHING to prevent a stoppage happening.

Lets define a stoppage so there's no ambiguity - a stoppage is when the rifle fails to fire when the trigger is pressed. Immediate action (as taught to all British Soldiers), check the position of the bolt, if it's forward - give it a forward assist etc etc etc. That stoppage could be :

ran out of ammo
stovepipe
fail to extract
feed failure (this is the one I'm talking about forward assisting for)
weapon malfunction
etc

Your assertion about not standing next to me on a range is fine, that's your choice, but you're wrong plain and simple. Were I to shoot a stage where the RO objected to all scenarios of a forward assist - then this will either cost me a reshoot for an argument over a perceived safety violation and offer me an unfair advantage OR it'll cost me seconds on a stage uneccesarily.

There is no reason to blanket object to forward assist on a rimfire. I agree entirely that there are times it is not appropriate to forward assist, but the inverse of that is absolutely very, very true.

Consider this - Remington are recalling ALL 700 triggers, to stay off any litigation around the issue they've had with said trigger - do you really think a litigious society such as the good ol US of A would tolertate forward assist on 22 rimfires were it not safe to do so when used properly?

[Mattnall]

FTF will not be solved by the forward assist at all. once a FTF has occurred the hammer will be forward and no amount of assisting forward will help.

anyway, a forward assist on a full-bore rifle is another issue totally, this is small bore rifles we are talking about.

[nickb834]

FTF will not be solved by the forward assist at all. once a FTF has occurred the hammer will be forward and no amount of assisting forward will help.

anyway, a forward on a full-bore rifle is another issue totally, this is small bore rifles we are talking about.

That's not true, what if the bolt hasn't gone far enough forward such that the disconnector hasn't been released - such that you can't pull the trigger? As is the case when my CMMG fails to go into battery or indeed the SA80(pre HK variant for me I'm afraid) fails to go into battery.

You may not be aware of this but CMMG AR15 lowers can be used on full bore AR15's as can Spikes amongst others (exception of 308 and others as the mag well is wrong size) - the mechanism is the same, the drills are the same, indeed 22LR AR15's are used for training as they are so much cheaper to feed than 223/5.56 - they can be used for training as the drills are the same....

I don't know if MP15-22 rifles have multi calibre lowers but a quick google says not - so I can't vouch for the trigger mechanism within.

Forward assist on a full bore rifle is NOT another issue totally, the same basics apply - it is fine to forward assist in either rim fire or centrefire as long as it is safe and appropriate to do so.

Have a look at this video - look at the bit where the hammer rises slightly after the bolt has gone forward, that's the disconnector letting off such that you can then release the trigger (that little click you'll feel is when the trigger resets), such that you can then subsequently pull the trigger again to fire:



If you pause at the 2 second mark, you'll see the round is feeding up the ramp but the bolt hasn't cleared the hammer - if at this point there's a stoppage you can't pull the trigger. I know this is a full bore video, but the same applies to the reduced dimensions of the 22LR bolt / magazine / chamber / feed ramp interface.

If there's one thing to come out of this debate - take the positive in that there is very little in this life that is certain | black / white and that blanket rules do not cover all scenarios.

[AR15]

Seems to me that the so called 'less experienced' has a better fundamental understanding of the rifles function than the alleged expert.

[Mattnall]

I have not set myself up as an expert on the AR, you have, and I never said the forward assist on a full-bore rifle shouldn't be used.

The forward assist was added when the initial M16s were found to be having trouble and that was partly solved by the change in powder used in the round, these days if it is needed then there is something else wrong that will need to be fixed, but not such an immediate issue on a range. But again we are getting side tracked with the full-bore use of the forward assist.

All I said was I wouldn't recommend using a forward assist on a rim fire round. A rim fire round can and does fire if the bolt is forced home on a stuck or stiff round - I have witnessed this on both bolt guns and a semis. The rim fire round is a very different prospect to the full-bore round and what the same lowers have to do with it I don't know.
It was a general statement and of course if you know the problem it might be safe to do so. But to definitely know what the problem is you will have investigated to find out, then the need to forward assist is negated as you will have removed the round to check if it is damaged as one of the reasons for the stoppage. If it needs to be done every time for a specific reason (and you assume there is no other reason) then perhaps the rifle needs to be looked at in more detail.

BTW, nice video, but the action is not the same as with rim fire rifles, as you surely know the bolt doesn't move anything like the distance that the full-bore one does and the shape of the bolt is totally different.

take the positive in that there is very little in this life that is certain | black / white and that blanket rules do not cover all scenarios.

I agree, so I would err on the side of caution and would not recommend the use of a forward assist on a rim fire round.