Practical Pistol

[Keithkilvo1]

AAW refers to the Autumn Action Weekend which is to held at Bisley in just under 2 weeks, I understand that many on here will shoot the discipline of "Practical Pistol" in different countries and maybe under different rules but as I originally posted I will be having a go at the AAW.
I will as a novice to this event take heed to the rules and instruction given from the RO on the day.....
Cheers
All

[Sim G]

Practical Pistol was always shot under the auspices of IPSC and UKPSA. Again, principals throughout those governing bodies would be based on established, well known practices and nomenclature. This would be the same throughout the 100 regions. I have had a quick trawl through the NRA 2017 handbook and the NRA gallery rifle and pistol handbook, and I can find no reference to the ready conditions as mentioned above.

You are right, you need to be fully aware of the rules in order to avoid an infringement or DQ. Which is why I cannot see why fundamentals have been changed.

Until I see otherwise, I can only assume that someone has been trained incorrectly, or they have absorbed the information incorrectly.

[Blackstuff]

I think the problem over here is practical shotgun is far more popular than practical pistol and they both use different terminology to describe loaded conditions (even though both rulebooks are written by IPSC and that's where most people get their rules from )

Its also far more straightforward with the shotgun conditions being;

Option 1; Loaded chamber and magazine
Option 2; Unloaded chamber and loaded magazine
Option 3; Gun unloaded

Its likely that this more commonly used (here) and easier to understand set of instructions has leached into practical pistol shooting here.

I can't for the life of me understand why anyone here would want to have a starting position where the chamber would be loaded and hammer decocked as most pistols are single action or striker fired making that condition impossible or impractical to use. Every time I've shot what could be loosely described as practical pistol you either start with the chamber loaded and hammer cocked (safety applied) or completely unloaded, wherever they fit into the Conditions 0-4

[Sim G]

I think the problem over here is practical shotgun is far more popular than practical pistol and they both use different terminology to describe loaded conditions (even though both rulebooks are written by IPSC and that's where most people get their rules from )

Its also far more straightforward with the shotgun conditions being;

Option 1; Loaded chamber and magazine
Option 2; Unloaded chamber and loaded magazine
Option 3; Gun unloaded

Its likely that this more commonly used (here) and easier to understand set of instructions has leached into practical pistol shooting here.

I think Mark, you actually provided the answer for the conundrum! That appears to be exactly what has happened. Pistol is being taught wrong, you could say. And when you look at previous posts, there is the mention of the man who is the NRAs target shotgun guru, running pistol comps...

For whatever reason, James Harris seems to put a lot of these starts in his matches.

[JSC]

Different people and organisers do things in different ways. If you were to look closely at the rules of each shooting discipline, you're bound to find differences and inconsistencies between them.
That doesn't necessarily mean that one's right and one's wrong.

I get where some of you are coming from with this, but where you now have practical shotgun being the dominant practical discipline in the UK (outside of NI, obviously) the terms used there inevitably 'migrate', especially if the organisers and ROs are the same.

I've looked at the rules myself now - always useful to do once in a while and I can see in IPSC shotgun, the gun ready conditions are clearly stated as "option 1,2,3" as I've described whereas in IPSC/USPSA/IDPA rules, there doesn't seem to be a term "condition x" or "option x" anywhere in the rules, just choices dependent on the type of firearm being used and whatever the written stage briefing might say. So I could argue that if ROs in NI IPSC matches are using those terms, they have been 'taught wrong' (said with tongue firmly in cheek).

In any case, the last thing I am trying to do is to drive a wedge between groups of organisers/shooters here and in NI (or anywhere else). That goes on way too much already. I just think what's happening here is some 'verbal shorthand' is creeping out of practical shotgun and into other disciplines in some matches run by some people, but I wouldn't go so far as to say anything is being 'taught wrong'. These pistol matches at Bisley are not being run to IPSC rules, so there is no reason the people who run them can't use their own terminology.

At the end of the day, for the benefit of those new to practical looking on and thinking "WTF?", the most important thing if you are unsure of a stage briefing or range command is to speak up and ask for clarification, not risk making a mistake and getting a penalty/bad time/DQ or whatever.

I hope that clears things up for some people.

[Daryll]

Its strange you say theres no mention of "conditions" in the IPSC rules, and I'm fairly sure then when I did my Practical Pistol basic course we were taught them...?? (Although, as i said before, this was 25 years ago so my memory may be fuzzy...)

Condition 1 was "cocked and locked"... loaded (magazine inserted), one in the chamber, hammer back, safety on.
Condition 2 was loaded, chamber empty, hammer down.
Condition 3 was unloaded, chamber empty, hammer down.

[JSC]

I've looked and what it says is this:

8.1 Handgun Ready Conditions
The ready condition for handguns will normally be as stated below. However, in
the event that a competitor fails to load the chamber when permitted by the written
stage briefing, whether inadvertently or intentionally, the Range Officer must
not take any action, as the competitor is always responsible for the handling of
the handgun.
8.1.1 Revolvers:
8.1.1.1 Single Action: hammer fully down on an empty chamber or, if
a safety notch is fitted, hammer down over a loaded chamber
(transfer bar designs excepted).
8.1.1.2 Double Action: hammer fully down and all chambers may be
loaded.
8.1.1.3 Non-traditional revolvers (e.g. those which operate in a “selfloading”
mode) are not allowed.
8.1.2 Self-loading Pistols:
8.1.2.1 “Single action” – chamber loaded, hammer cocked, and the
safety engaged.
8.1.2.2 “Double action” – chamber loaded, hammer fully down or decocked.
8.1.2.3 “Selective action” – chamber loaded with hammer fully down,
or chamber loaded and hammer cocked with external safety
engaged (see Divisions in Appendix D).

[Keithkilvo1]

What a great comp. thoroughly enjoyed my morning shooting this, I was made very welcome by the guys on squad 2 including JSC. Plenty to take away to practise but I can highly recommend the discipline and to top it all I didn't come last as Arnie would say " I'll be back"

[daman]

I'll second that. Sorry I didn't get to meet you Keith, I shot the afternoon - squad 5.

Everyone was helpful and understanding to a novice like me. Excellent (and tricky, James H - looking at you!) course design, professional and effective RO's.

I managed to completely f**k up three stages due to my own inexperience/incompetence, and dropped another two due to light strikes, but manged to shoot three stages reasonably well.

wrt the light strikes, got good advice re some fettling from some fellows there, so will be trying what they suggested and reporting back if it works.

Managed to (just about) not come last, so things are getting better! Will definitely be back for more.

If there are any clubs within a few hours drive of Harrow or Ayr that have facilities to practice, I'd love to hear. It's an addictive sport!

[JSC]

Yes, another good day with no rain (at least not in the morning).

This game is a constant learning process and the first few times you'll have so many things to think about you'll inevitably get something a bit wrong, but watch and learn and it'll soon start to become easier!