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TattooedGun wrote:

hitchphil wrote:If you mess about with match 54s you will damage their ability to shoot accurately & render them valueless. Best to go on small-bore forums like Stirton & ask about for Match 64 (the biathlon barrel & action) & BSA Centuries. However young kids unable to hold a gun up shouldn't be shooting sling & glove? their bone structure is not ready for constant loads - best to get them to shoot match style with hand on a bag/rest & gun in hand. A sling is fine as its steadies the hold & over time & age tighten it up. In that config you can take the butt plate off & add weight to balance the rifle.

Couple tricks - when ready (stable position & trigger technique) get them to shoot with a scope, then iron sights & compare the groups - if they can shoot & their position / eye sight is correct, the irons sight groups will be smaller.

As they get older & age & bones grow - Gently tighten up the sling till taking the weight, let them shoot like that, take a pic & show them the bipod / rest was doing nothing! Have done this in the TR Skills course - we get a few recreational shooters wanting to improve their skills but not shoot 'Bondage TR' we say give it a go & gently tighten up a sling - one guy convinced he could never shoot TR shot a 49.6 with a 4-5Kg bi-pod one inch off the ground! - didn't believe it till he saw the picture. He got quite a buzz from it & now shoots TR.

If you are coaching kids get some qualified people or some experienced people qualified. It makes a difference having the wider knowledge base & skill set to coach & train. Afraid i have had some scouts & cadets who were taught sub-optimal position & technique & its harder to undo later on.

More than anything recognise in coaching kids make it fun & they might come back to shooting later on in life at cadets, uni, or even after the mortgage & their kids are gone.

There's more than I'd like to go into in this, suffice to say I find the vast majority of it condescending, you've clearly made some wildly inaccurate assumptions about our coaches and experience within the discipline.

Mate dont take offence but when i'm reading 'little arms', the handstop of a 54 all the way back, using handstop & slings & 'unbearable' i am starting my response & assumptions from a pretty basic level! & thinking are they small, so small arguably unsuited to prone sling & glove, so that questions is there a qualified coach involved? because they should know that .... & when you talk about lathing hard steel barrels etc down, or adding weights? vs networking for more appropriate rifles I am thinking 'do they know what they are doing'? because its the first time I have heard that idea as the solution to the std issue of youngster vs size of rifle. With no mention of qualified people? but a couple of 'does not sound quite right' ideas & descriptions being used is indeed raising some assumptions ............ & alarm bells too.

Great you do have qualified people - so they will know about bone structure & shooting then..... ? & know that if they cant hold it on a sling / glove not to try for now? vs getting 'unbearable' feedback from the shooter!? too many clubs truss kids up in gear & straps too early & make it 'not fun' so they cant achieve, so leave less than enthused to come back? & that the principles of marksmanship dont need a sling & glove, just good position, breathing, sighting & trigger technique, you can do all then match style, even bench rested & if a comfortable outer position cant be achieved because the gun is to heavy & unbalanced? then inner position will not even be on radar, let alone consistent shot cycle, & if your coaches etc are seasoned 22 shots they will know how the harmonics of a 22 barrel can be seriously affected by changing its length & shape? (try putting a weight on a rubber pipe clamp on a barrel & move it in 10mm jumps vs 10rnd gps) & that nobody will buy a messed about 54 when you eventually try to upgrade. I have scrapped guns like that, bought for the sights & spares alone at nothing £

I got the GB Scout squad a number of lightweight target rifles for under £100 each, Match 64s & Centuries (no need to spend £ks) & if you are interested? I know of some anschutz target rifles going begging probably £20 each ish? from a school that are even smaller & lighter than a 64! (they look like little hunting rifles but are indeed target rifles) - no sights- however std anschutz sights fit. Suitable for age 8+ but they deliberately dont have sling attachments.

I spend more time than anything else correcting position & techniques in rifle shooting, many of them x smallbore shots, from Unis & in Scouts, you find my response condescending? I find your description of the issues & responses as someone coaching kids worrying!

Cheers GB Scout Squad Coach, NRA TR Club Coach.

TattooedGun wrote:

Graham M wrote:

TattooedGun wrote:
I would imagine that more than "choking" at the muzzle it would be to do with barrel harmonics, since the bore of the rifle and it's rifling should be consistent down the length of the barrel, not removing the "bulge" when profiling the barrel would not add "choking" but the additional material at the end will alter the harmonics of the barrel.

Not always the case. Many years ago I cut down an old Walther match rifle to 7 inches and one of the engineering lads at Halesowen cut a half inch UNF thread on it for me. Fitted a PH moderator and used it for rabbiting. Took rabbits well out to 80 yds with it. When they took our pistols off us in 96/97 my FEO told me to hand it in as it was now classed as a pistol.

Not long ago I sold my old Match 64 that my own son used when he was 14. He used it for over 25 years and all we did was extend the butt as he got older.
As I said, cutting a barrel down on a match rifle is sacrilege and really isn't necessary. As for short barrels; Anschutz brought out the 2013 originally as a 16" barrel and fitter it with an extension tube. It was primarily for the German market where they concentrated on 50mtrs. Didn't go down well here and was later fitted with the 1913 barrel (I have that 1913 rifle).
I'll be over there later this year for the County short range shoot. Maybe catch you on the day if you are there.

Mixed messages...

"Cutting down a barrel on a match rifle is sacrilege"
"many years ago I cut down an old Walther match rifle"

We do with what we have to suit our needs. As it happens, these rifles will be staying in their original configuration and we're sourcing additional rifles, but the fact remains it would have been cheaper for the club to modify what we have to suit our needs than to spend thousands to buy exactly what we need.

In this case we have the cash as a club to spend the money to buy additional, more suitable rifles, but I wouldn't say it was sacrilege for anyone with a similar need, without the funds that our club has, to consider shortening the barrel or turning it down to make it suitable for the end use.

Provided it doesn't clash with other competitions, I should be at the County shoot

No not the same thing. An anschutz match rifle is a beautiful rifle whereas that old Walther was just butt-ugly and was destined to be turned into something nice
I have seen some old BSA's cut down and fitted with a moderator and the stock nicely chequered; Ivan Hancock and Dave Pope at Venom arms used to do them and by gawd they shot well.
Someone else seems to be doing them now- http://ukvarminting.com/topic/42034-bsa-martini/

hitchphil wrote: Mate dont take offence but when i'm reading 'little arms', the handstop of a 54 all the way back, using handstop & slings & 'unbearable' i am starting my response & assumptions from a pretty basic level! & thinking are they small, so small arguably unsuited to prone sling & glove, so that questions is there a qualified coach involved? because they should know that .... & when you talk about lathing hard steel barrels etc down, or adding weights? vs networking for more appropriate rifles I am thinking 'do they know what they are doing'? because its the first time I have heard that idea as the solution to the std issue of youngster vs size of rifle. With no mention of qualified people? but a couple of 'does not sound quite right' ideas & descriptions being used is indeed raising some assumptions ............ & alarm bells too.

As I mentioned, the 1411's that the club currently has are massively front heavy, the 1403's we have which are far more suitable are fine for these kids. It is merely an issue of trying to use the wrong rifle for the job. Yes I was trying to find a workaround to make these heavy rifles lighter. yes I know about harmonics of rifle barrels.

hitchphil wrote: Great you do have qualified people - so they will know about bone structure & shooting then..... ? & know that if they cant hold it on a sling / glove not to try for now? vs getting 'unbearable' feedback from the shooter!? too many clubs truss kids up in gear & straps too early & make it 'not fun' so they cant achieve, so leave less than enthused to come back? & that the principles of marksmanship dont need a sling & glove, just good position, breathing, sighting & trigger technique, you can do all then match style, even bench rested & if a comfortable outer position cant be achieved because the gun is to heavy & unbalanced? then inner position will not even be on radar, let alone consistent shot cycle, & if your coaches etc are seasoned 22 shots they will know how the harmonics of a 22 barrel can be seriously affected by changing its length & shape? (try putting a weight on a rubber pipe clamp on a barrel & move it in 10mm jumps vs 10rnd gps) & that nobody will buy a messed about 54 when you eventually try to upgrade. I have scrapped guns like that, bought for the sights & spares alone at nothing £

You take what I've said about "unbearable" as a direct quote, I was paraphrasing because I don't need to go into the utmost granular details, this is an internet forum and I was after solutions to the problem of having a rifle that is too heavy for the shooter, where other rifles are not.

As I said, you've made wild assumptions and made your opinion of how we coach based on the conversation about modifying gear we're currently using and trying to rectify issues with the equipment.

You know absolutely nothing about the methodology that we employ, nor the training schedule that we promote, yet you're all too eager to try to lecture me on the very basics, as if I or the coaches know absolutely nothing. Yes, this is condescending.

By the time these kids even touch the prone rifle discipline they have already undergone the NSRA Youth Proficiency scheme and shot to marksman level at 10m air rifle, standing, unsupported. They know the fundamentals of marksmanship and they have proven themselves.
They then move on to prone from a rest and apply these fundamentals and shoot groups until they are proving themselves accurate - they then progress onto the sling and jacket, shooting unsupported and this is the point at which we found that these kids who can already shoot are having issues with the equipment, but not when they use a lighter shorter barrelled rifle.

Again, I've shortened the procedure to give an indication that we're not just throwing them on the floor without any consideration, this is a process that takes months teaching the correct methods, positions and techniques at every step of the way, according to the prescribed training course.

hitchphil wrote: I got the GB Scout squad a number of lightweight target rifles for under £100 each, Match 64s & Centuries (no need to spend £ks) & if you are interested? I know of some anschutz target rifles going begging probably £20 each ish? from a school that are even smaller & lighter than a 64! (they look like little hunting rifles but are indeed target rifles) - no sights- however std anschutz sights fit. Suitable for age 8+ but they deliberately dont have sling attachments.

That's a fantastic offer. It would have been even better if we hadn't just spent over a grand on similar equipment. Anschutz target rifles for £20 each. Sounds amazing, they're currently fetching upwards of £400+. Again this would have been fantastic a few weeks ago!

hitchphil wrote: I spend more time than anything else correcting position & techniques in rifle shooting, many of them x smallbore shots, from Unis & in Scouts, you find my response condescending? I find your description of the issues & responses as someone coaching kids worrying!

Cheers GB Scout Squad Coach, NRA TR Club Coach.

Again, you're making the assumption that I'm the person coaching kids. I am not, nor did I suggest such in my previous responses. We have dedicated members who look after the kids, who liaised with the secretary and then relayed their concerns about equipment to myself. So if you take anything I have said as a direct reflection of the standard of our coaches, then that's on you, not me.

Anschutz rifles for £20 each!!!!!!!

Bloody hell I couldn't buy the foresight tube for that aaarggh

A friend recently bought a BSA International for £120. This was in mint condition and included the sights. Screwed into the rear sight was a Parker-Hale camera iris type variable aperture. The sights alone, sold on E-bay would fetch more than he paid for the lot. Eight to ten years ago, I was offered an Anschutz 54 for nothing. The owner was giving up and had been unable to sell it.
It depends on the circles that you move in and what is in fashion. The new sport of .22 bench rest has brought these older--and often better--rifles back into vogue.
I have noticed recently that there are customised Ruger .22s at a fraction of what they cost a few years ago. The lead spraying community havde gone mad for plastic black rifles.
Fred

I have just been told that Malvern rifle club is giving up and have several Anschutz and BSA's they are getting rid of.

Graham M wrote:I have just been told that Malvern rifle club is giving up and have several Anschutz and BSA's they are getting rid of.

Thanks Graham, I'll see if I can get in touch...

As it happens, I'm informed that the secretary of our club has now acquired three appropriate Junior rifles from a club in Kent, but it's always a good idea to see what's out there for improving our club rifles.

kevinww wrote:Why mess with a perfectly good rifle, why not pick up an 1803,1903 second hand for around £500ish, seems to be current going rate with sights, which is probably around what it would cost to modify the 54 to get enough weight out of it, bonus being you would have a lightweight for smaller shooters and something heavier for those that can cope with it.

Very good reply as it speaks to saving an original rifle. A butchered item has very little value to the next person down the line. "Somone" will want that supposedly heavy brute, and saving old target rifles is one of my hobbies. There are a FEW manufactures that take into consideration the smaller or petite shooters. My daughter and granddaughter are two. Daughter is Chinese and barely comes to 5 feet tall. She had a struggle for a while and used a cut-down Winchester 75 for the first year. Sure, the trigger on the 75 is near horrible, but the same exact rifle she used was the same rifle that Olympic Gold Medal winner, Launi Meili used when she started out.

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