The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

We'd just end up with a lot more people shot if everyone carried guns for defence.

Those who get shot are usually called "criminals" where people do carry.

safetyfirst wrote:I hope to hell we never allow society to descend to the level where we require firearms for personal protection.

It's an admission of failure. If you don't feel safe unless you've got a gun, your society has failed you. It's failed to provide you with an environment where you're safe.

If it has provided you with an environment where you're safe and you still want a gun for personal protection then you've failed to embrace the values of your society.

Either way something has failed.

Love guns, build them, shoot them, admire them, glad the pub's not full of them.

I'm not sure what cotton-covered gated community you live in but we've already failed. People (real people, not the middle-class upwards) generally don't feel safe out and about. Crime is up, regardless of the mechanisms used to fiddle the figures and street crime is only getting worse.
You really do sound like an anti.
Pubs full of guns? FFS, get real.
With only 1.34% of the population having access to firearms and only a fraction of that having S1 firearms, even if all S1 owners wanted to carry you're still far more likely to bump into a criminal than an armed civilian.

Really, do some research before flapping your gums eh?

Have a read - I don't agree with some of what he says but hey,this is a discussion forum. Quite a long blog but worth a read.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... of-the-gun

Like most gun owners, I understand the ethical importance of guns and cannot honestly wish for a world without them. I suspect that sentiment will shock many readers. Wouldn’t any decent person wish for a world without guns? In my view, only someone who doesn’t understand violence could wish for such a world. A world without guns is one in which the most aggressive men can do more or less anything they want. It is a world in which a man with a knife can rape and murder a woman in the presence of a dozen witnesses, and none will find the courage to intervene. There have been cases of prison guards (who generally do not carry guns) helplessly standing by as one of their own was stabbed to death by a lone prisoner armed with an improvised blade. The hesitation of bystanders in these situations makes perfect sense—and “diffusion of responsibility” has little to do with it. The fantasies of many martial artists aside, to go unarmed against a person with a knife is to put oneself in very real peril, regardless of one’s training. The same can be said of attacks involving multiple assailants. A world without guns is a world in which no man, not even a member of Seal Team Six, can reasonably expect to prevail over more than one determined attacker at a time. A world without guns, therefore, is one in which the advantages of youth, size, strength, aggression, and sheer numbers are almost always decisive. Who could be nostalgic for such a world?

There are laws in the US with CCW and establishments that serve alcohol..(more than 50% of sales are of alcohol, some establishments display 51% signs) and it's also against the law to conceal carry while intoxicated. The laws do vary state by state, but that is certainly the case in pro-gun Texas!

So *if* we were ever to see CCW here, you would think it would have similar sensible laws. So you wouldn't bump into someone down the pub with a gun.

Chuck wrote:Have a read - I don't agree with some of what he says but hey,this is a discussion forum. Quite a long blog but worth a read.

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the- ... of-the-gun

Like most gun owners, I understand the ethical importance of guns and cannot honestly wish for a world without them. I suspect that sentiment will shock many readers. Wouldn’t any decent person wish for a world without guns? In my view, only someone who doesn’t understand violence could wish for such a world. A world without guns is one in which the most aggressive men can do more or less anything they want. It is a world in which a man with a knife can rape and murder a woman in the presence of a dozen witnesses, and none will find the courage to intervene. There have been cases of prison guards (who generally do not carry guns) helplessly standing by as one of their own was stabbed to death by a lone prisoner armed with an improvised blade. The hesitation of bystanders in these situations makes perfect sense—and “diffusion of responsibility” has little to do with it. The fantasies of many martial artists aside, to go unarmed against a person with a knife is to put oneself in very real peril, regardless of one’s training. The same can be said of attacks involving multiple assailants. A world without guns is a world in which no man, not even a member of Seal Team Six, can reasonably expect to prevail over more than one determined attacker at a time. A world without guns, therefore, is one in which the advantages of youth, size, strength, aggression, and sheer numbers are almost always decisive. Who could be nostalgic for such a world?

Really interesting, thanks for linking it Chuck. Like you, I don't agree with everything he says, but it's a very interesting read and I do agree with many of his points.

safetyfirst wrote:I hope to hell we never allow society to descend to the level where we require firearms for personal protection.

It's an admission of failure. If you don't feel safe unless you've got a gun, your society has failed you. It's failed to provide you with an environment where you're safe.

If it has provided you with an environment where you're safe and you still want a gun for personal protection then you've failed to embrace the values of your society.

Either way something has failed.

Love guns, build them, shoot them, admire them, glad the pub's not full of them.

Well, given the rise in violent crime I'd say we were already well into the point of failure. And British politicians with their personal bodyguards and armoured limousines are hardly in a position to say that we're not.

There's nothing wrong with an admission of failure - it's the first step to recovery. The second step is doing something about it.

This 'society' of which you speak. You it couch it in terms as some kind of separate organization that owes you certain securities and when it goes wrong it has failed you. Unfortunately failure in society is just as much your fault as this fictitious entity. You are a part of it and if you bury your head in the sand, do nothing more than say 'somebody should do something to fix these failures and make us safe again' ... well that's your job as much as anyone's.

In truth there never was a society, outside of work of fiction The Minority Report, where the police protected 'society'. For the most part police react to crime rather than occasionally prevent it through the lucky chance of being in the right place at the right time.
Police are called after you've been stabbed dead - not before it. That's not a lot of help when you find yourself in a situation in which you need to protect yourself. And don't look to society to help you out. They'll probably just look shocked and or take pictures of your fate with their mobiles.

Given the cutbacks in police staff, an increase in population, extremely loose borders, a huge increase in dealing with quite serious offenses with cautions, over-filled prisons, ridiculously light sentences caused by and causing overfilled prisons ... I think society has gone well beyond failure and needs to take that first step and admit it.

Tech Guy: Thanks.

techguy wrote:There are laws in the US with CCW and establishments that serve alcohol..(more than 50% of sales are of alcohol, some establishments display 51% signs) and it's also against the law to conceal carry while intoxicated. The laws do vary state by state, but that is certainly the case in pro-gun Texas!

So *if* we were ever to see CCW here, you would think it would have similar sensible laws. So you wouldn't bump into someone down the pub with a gun.

In the majority of US States if not all, it is illegal to take a concealed firearm into any bar, or restaurant that serves alcohol.

[quote="Blu"

In the majority of US States if not all, it is illegal to take a concealed firearm into any bar, or restaurant that serves alcohol.[/quote]

so you can't wear a gun to dinner, even if you are not drinking? I would have thought it would be more like drink driving laws.

Bradaz, Actually mate the restaurant thing is wrong, it's only where the primary source of income is through selling booze, ie a bar and certain other places.
The above is some of the CCW laws for Michigan.