SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

[Jnadreth]

5.56mm NATO effectiveness has been questioned in Afghanistan

Aye, ooman. If he were alive today Neville Sneyd Bertie-Clay would be spinning in his grave...

Had to quickly find out who Bertie Clay was :lol: Yes he would... Just imagine his reaction to the L85a1 :lol: He'd demand his Lee Metford back

[ordnance]

5.56mm NATO effectiveness has been questioned in Afghanistan as the US forces now carry M14's as well as M16's and M4's.

That's not going to happen any time soon. We will be using what the Americans are using.

[Scotsgun]

I carried an A2 during the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Despite the improvements, it was still very prone to jamming in the desert conditions........I would note that the official "fix" of slathering the rifle in oil could not be directly followed - as the Army failed to provide any rifle oil. We had to make do with engine oil out of the Land Rovers.

About two days into the invasion, I came across a culvert containing the stripped and smashed remains of about half a dozen AKs. I picked up some random parts, and made myself a rifle. That AK then became my personal weapon, .................the Army had only given me 7 rounds for my HiPower, and I could only obtain 20 rounds for the borrowed A2...............

I did try to keep out of this one as there will never be a satisfactory answer; there's just too much history and strong opinions. However the amount of b u l l s h i t t i n g in this thread is getting out of hand!

Slathering a gun in oil, in the grit and sand conditions we experienced in Gulf 1! What sort of dick wouldn't realise that it would become a sand magnet?
Only issued a handful of rounds - what was this craphat operating, a typewriter? There was bloody mountains of ammo. And as to running around with a kits-parts AK.....no-one would appreciate an AK letting rip nearby. You listen out for the distinctive AK in order to locate the direction of in-coming fire. Someone's been taking a leaf out of an episode of 'Dads Army.'

I was in long enough to experience the last of the SLRs which were long past their usefulness and were god awful. The may well have looked freshly parkerised but the bores were knackered and couldn't hit a barn door. I took the A1 to Belize and brought them back in bin bags. It literally fell apart in your hands. However the A2 was a different animal. I carried it in Iraq and it was and is a good service weapon. The new guys who are unaware of the history and the predjudice use it and trust it. Yes, there are better rifles out there but the A2 doesn't deserve the s*** directed at it. Especially by those who have only ran parade grounds, STABS or just read about it.

Incidentally, those spouting the virtues of the Steyr AUG and the M4/Ar15s should actually try them in anger. The Steyr with the bullpup design with long barrel makes it badly balanced magazines fail regularly if not kept spotless. The ARs can be a right arse to keep clean with stoppage probs.

[M99]

Didn't I say that a few pages back?! sign92 :cheers:

Mike

[Sandgroper]

Scotsgun,

Like you, I didn't want to get involved mainly because my experience with the L85 has been extremely limited, however even though I probably rate even lower than a 'craphat' in your opinion - Air Force (similar role to the RAF Regt) and a foreign one at that - the Steyr AUG or more correctly F88 Austeyr was my personal weapon for 5 years.

In that time I never experienced or heard of any problems with the magazines falling out. Our biggest gripe with the F88 was the flimsiness of the cocking handle. I don't know under what conditions you used the AUG or even the type but even with the standard 20 inch barrel it wasn't unbalanced, IMO. If you want unbalanced and have magazines falling out try carrying the L2A1 (heavy barrelled, automatic SLR) - my personal weapon during my Basic course. sign01

My only experience with M-16 family of rifles was with some shot out Vietnam War era rifles that the Army passed onto us because we asked for M203s to replace our M79s - to call them junk is being nice!

BTW I agree with you regarding sand, oil and rifles - never mix them!

[ordnance]

The Steyr with the bullpup design with long barrel makes it badly

If you want a badly balanced rifle look no further than the SA/80. Steyr AGU sold to around 30 countries SA/80 i think they managed to get rid of a few to a couple of countries they have probably fell apart by now. The number sold says it all.

The ARs can be a right arse to keep clean with stoppage probs.

That would make you wonder why its popular with special forces and
the armies of around 60 countries.

[Jnadreth]

The Steyr with the bullpup design with long barrel makes it badly

If you want a badly balanced rifle look no further than the SA/80. Steyr AGU sold to around 30 countries SA/80 i think they managed to get rid of a few to a couple of countries they have probably fell apart by now. The number sold says it all.

The ARs can be a right arse to keep clean with stoppage probs.

That would make you wonder why its popular with special forces and
the armies of around 60 countries.

Exactly my point I was trying to convey about the Steyr AUG and the SA80....no-one wants the SA80 :lol: Even Argentina adopted the AUG

[SevenSixTwo]

Why is the AR platform more popular with UKSF / other armies? Amongst many considerations the following are likely:

Spares availability
Pricepoint
Weight saving.
It's often said [although I don't really believe it] that UKSF can 'look' like their US counterparts using an AR and thus become 'deniable'.

They're certainly not used by UKSF [now] for reasons of accuracy or reliability; the A2 has the upper hand in that department [now] (by a country mile). When first used, the AR would have had the upper hand on reliability over the A1... and they've simply not changed preference.

[ordnance]

for reasons of accuracy or reliability

I woldent overstate accuracy as making a good service rifle they have to have acceptable accuracy. The A/K 47 is a popular rifle but its not renowned for its accuracy. Service rifles are not target rifles you can have the most accurate rifle but its no good if it doesn't work.

[SevenSixTwo]

I woldent overstate accuracy as making a good service rifle...

Me neither but the L85 simply is extremely accurate and always has been. And it now 'just works'. Like I said, I wouldn't trade it for anything.