SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

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Jnadreth

Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#61 Post by Jnadreth »

Well the A2's accuracy makes it an Ideal candidate for modification to a straight pull for FAC holders ;)....My personal dislike of it stems from its issues in combat...mainly furniture and mild reliability issues in the desert (A2 specifically....A1's were canibalised for parts as I recal) but for civvie use it should have no problems :)...if a company could make sum alternate furnitures and extra attachments for it :D....it could be pretty sweet....some nice walnut furniture would give it the EM2's appearance lol Selling a straight pull version to civvies could generate cash for the next standard rifle :)...D-acs and selling A2's to Jamaica/Bolivia and Sierra Leone could make a tidy profit too...I'd suggest all three methods and then get sum really hig spec stuff :D Could do the same for the LSW's L86's right now...they have been abandonded due to their issues...the L86 is way worse than the L85 was....even Heckler could not fix it lol
Gaz

Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#62 Post by Gaz »

Talking of straight-pull SA80 rifles, I do wonder whether the 20,000 L98A1 straight-pulls that were withdrawn from the cadet forces in 2009 were just torched or dumped at sea or maybe even stored. They were specifically designed to be Section 1 legal.

Be nice if those came out for sale some day, even though 90% of the fleet was beyond knackered.

I also remember an MoD press release from a couple of years ago where some clapped out tub of a ship had been "gifted" to the Romanian (?) navy along with a hundred or so L85A1s. Probably had to insist on them taking the A1s as a condition of accepting the ship!
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Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#63 Post by Rearlugs »

Scotsgun and Sandgroper, thanks for your comments!

Looks like at least one of you was on the Sherry at the time of posting. Nothing wrong with that of course....

Scotsgun wrote: Slathering a gun in oil, in the grit and sand conditions we experienced in Gulf 1! What sort of dick wouldn't realise that it would become a sand magnet?
Actually you are both wrong: counter-intuitive as it may seem, liberal oiling of the SA80A1/2 working parts in desert/dusty areas is the official ITDU solution to the issues with the rifle jamming in dusty conditions. This solution - along with the MoD actually buying a cleaning kit that cost more than 50 pence - was the outcome of the (in)famous reliability trials conducted after all the A1 issues came to light. As far as I am aware, it is still the Training Small Arms Pam whatever instruction - so still current practice.


Scotsgun wrote: Only issued a handful of rounds - what was this craphat operating, a typewriter? There was bloody mountains of ammo. And as to running around with a kits-parts AK.....no-one would appreciate an AK letting rip nearby. You listen out for the distinctive AK in order to locate the direction of in-coming fire. Someone's been taking a leaf out of an episode of 'Dads Army.'
Scotsgun; you seem to be commenting with authority, but on the wrong war. During Gulf1 you had the benefit of the entire 1 (BR) Corps being cannibalised to produce the Div(-) that took the field. At that time, UK still had large stocks of ammo and material. Unfortunately, by Gulf2 (Op Telic), the mob stocks had been disposed of to save money, and Bliar's government had deliberately not allowed MoD to build up war stocks in the run up to the war. Consequently, British forces went into the invasion chronically short of all types of uniform, armour, ammunition & equipment. The regiment I attached to IIRC had received about 100 rounds of 9mm, which was distributed to those officers and medics carrying pistols. As I had joined late from another task where I had de-bombed, it was necessary to take two rounds of 9mm off each medic in order to give me one mag of ammunition. As I regarded this as insufficient firepower with which to invade a hostile country, I borrowed a rifle from an RTA casualty. At this stage, there was only about 20 rounds per man available for late joiners. There were only a handful of grenades and illum per sub-unit. Luckily, it was only the Iraqis we were up against... Your later Telic tour will have been after the MoD belatedly started buying in kit, so you would have been flush by that stage.

Re: AKs: rowlocks. There were about 40x in use in the above-mentioned unit alone. Different war, different means, etc.

Re: Typewriter: also rowlocks - I can't type. I'll give you a couple of combat indicators: I crossed the Iraq border at about H+30 mins as part of USMC 1 MEF spearhead, or about 24hrs ahead of the rest of UK 1 Div. In fact that was actually the third time I'd been across the border that week - not bad for a combat clerk. BTW, none of my berets are craphats..... LOL



The A2 is a reliable and accurate rifle. It just took about 20 years to get to that point, and is now a rather heavy and unwieldy rifle when all the current UOR bits and/or UGLs are added on. Things have moved on, and rifles like the 416/417 & SCAR-L/H are a significant ergonomic improvement. Only a personal view, but telescopic stocks and conventional lay-out work better for me than bull-pup configuration. Evenso, I think it will be a shame if rifle design gets stuck in its current AR rut, as I feel that push-in mags - especially in 7.62mm - are a serious drawback over hook-and-lock design such as the AK and L1A1 types. Lets also hope that USA don't take the route of choosing a new round dimensioned to fit all their old AR lowers - then they might finally look at the sort of high performance round that others have been experimenting with for about a century.....
huntervixen

Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#64 Post by huntervixen »

Afternoon all,

Oh dear, what have I started.... I was only mentioning a book I just bought! It does amaze me the widely different personal perspectives users have of the L85!!

I think it will still be the subject of discussion and indeed heated debate for many years to come...probably when the only few "live" ones left are the examples in the SASC collection!

They will forever stand as an example of how not to equip an Army!

As for those of you who seem to think that people who haven't served should have no opinion on the subject, well, I am one such person, but, I do care greatly what our Service people are equipped with and how my tax money is spent...and have the right to comment on it
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Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#65 Post by ovenpaa »

There are so many different views on different rifles, I was talking to some Danes a while ago who were issued with plastic magazines with their C7's and C8's. The moment new Americans got to Afghanistan they were intent on swapping their heavier steel magazines for plastic ones. The Danes were more than happy to help out and the vast majority I spoke to had steel magazines stashed away.
/d

Du lytter aldrig til de ord jeg siger. Du ser mig kun for det tøj jeg har paa ...

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Sandgroper
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Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#66 Post by Sandgroper »

Rearlugs wrote:Scotsgun and Sandgroper, thanks for your comments!

Looks like at least one of you was on the Sherry at the time of posting. Nothing wrong with that of course....

Scotsgun wrote: Slathering a gun in oil, in the grit and sand conditions we experienced in Gulf 1! What sort of dick wouldn't realise that it would become a sand magnet?
Actually you are both wrong: counter-intuitive as it may seem, liberal oiling of the SA80A1/2 working parts in desert/dusty areas is the official ITDU solution to the issues with the rifle jamming in dusty conditions. This solution - along with the MoD actually buying a cleaning kit that cost more than 50 pence - was the outcome of the (in)famous reliability trials conducted after all the A1 issues came to light. As far as I am aware, it is still the Training Small Arms Pam whatever instruction - so still current practice.
Sherry - don't touch the stuff! sign01

I can't comment about UK practice but when I was in, we were definitely taught not to leave the working parts of our rifles oiled when in sandy/dusty conditions - most of Australia really! :grin:

Don't know what the current practice is and if it's different to what I was taught - who cares - as long as it works for those deployed. I have heard rumours :roll: of a 6.5 or 6.8 chambered version of the Auststeyr which could be fun - if true.

I think all of is largely a case of 'The grass is greener..."
“The standard you walk past is the standard you accept.”

Lieutenant General David Morrison

I plink, therefore I shoot.
saddler

Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#67 Post by saddler »

My days under a tin hat were pre-L85 - the fact that the helmets we issued WERE tin gives it away somewhat!

A mate with Gulf War I experience, in the RA - 39 Hvy Rgt (MLRS unit) says that during his time in the desert they were given a weapons drill pre-invasion - by a nice chap from the Small Arms School Corps.
Prior to this the doctrine had been as per the SLR - in sandy desert conditions you keep the parts dry & free of oil

SASC Instructor method = grab L85, drench with copious qty of oil & announce to assembled drop-shorts "L85 is now prepped for firing!"
Scotsgun

Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#68 Post by Scotsgun »

Rearlugs wrote: Blah, blah, blah.....
I'm not as polite as Sandgroper. Stop talking bollox :55:

Read all the dumbf you want. The difference is that some have actually used them in action.
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Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#69 Post by Chapuis »

Way back in 1976 when the issue rifle was the SLR we were taught in training to actualy set the parts out in the sun after cleaning so as to sweat off any excess oil. The logic being that oil will hold dust and sand.

I always follow the old adage that a good soldier should be like a rifle, spotlessly clean and lightly oiled.
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Re: SA80 " The Reluctant Rifle"

#70 Post by ordnance »

Way back in 1976 when the issue rifle was the SLR we were taught in training to actualy set the parts out in the sun after cleaning so as to sweat off any excess oil. The logic being that oil will hold dust and sand.
Probably not a good idea in a war zone.
Read all the dumbf you want. The difference is that some have actually used them in action.
Does that mean that someone that has fired a few rounds in action becomes a weapons expert. And knows more about weapons and how to clean shoot and maintain them than the ones that design them for example. I know guys in the army have no interest in firearms and couldn't hit a barn door.
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