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Even having read about the First day of the Battle and having visited the battlefield several times I still find when reading accounts of it almost unbelievable.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 42217.html

Jenks

I've read and heard reports about the Somme since I was a nipper - quite a while ago :lol: - and it still makes me feel incredibly proud and incredibly angry, in equal measure, to hear of so many brave lives taken away in such a short time by the stupidity of some tw@t sitting in his dugout thinking that he had devised a wonderful plan of attack.

I cannot imagine what any battle in the 1914-18 conflict must have been like, but the Somme will always be held in the highest regard by myself and others as the epitome of the bravery of British men at arms.

Les wrote:I've read and heard reports about the Somme since I was a nipper - quite a while ago :lol: - and it still makes me feel incredibly proud and incredibly angry, in equal measure, to hear of so many brave lives taken away in such a short time by the stupidity of some tw@t sitting in his dugout thinking that he had devised a wonderful plan of attack.

I cannot imagine what any battle in the 1914-18 conflict must have been like, but the Somme will always be held in the highest regard by myself and others as the epitome of the bravery of British men at arms.

Lions led by Donkeys
Alan

20series wrote:

Les wrote:I've read and heard reports about the Somme since I was a nipper - quite a while ago :lol: - and it still makes me feel incredibly proud and incredibly angry, in equal measure, to hear of so many brave lives taken away in such a short time by the stupidity of some tw@t sitting in his dugout thinking that he had devised a wonderful plan of attack.

I cannot imagine what any battle in the 1914-18 conflict must have been like, but the Somme will always be held in the highest regard by myself and others as the epitome of the bravery of British men at arms.

Lions led by Donkeys
Alan

That's not really fair, the British Army at the time was going through an unprecedented learning process, we hadn't fought a war in anything like the Great War since the Napoleonic Wars. The French and Germans who performed better in the early years of the War did so because they knocked bits out of each other in the Franco-Prussian War using modern artillery.

The first day of the Somme was down to a misunderstanding in what was needed to achieve victory, Neuve-Chappelle in 1915 showed that the British Army could break in but exploitation was the difficulty. The reason for the initial success at Neuve-Chappelle? Well despite the initial bombardment being both shorter and involving fewer guns than the Somme the actual guns per mile density was far higher and there were no significant gaps in firing like there were in the prep for the Somme.

Sadly British High Command took it to mean more and longer bombardments would be better instead of the real lesson that a dense bombardment that was short was what was needed. Hell during the Brusilov offensive the Russians started some battles with any artillery support whatsoever, mainly as they didn't have any shells. Despite this these often proved to be some of the most successful attacks.

Absolute 'ollocks !

The British General Staff explicitly advised against an attack in the Somme, knowing full well that it was most unlikely to succeed. The germans were well dug in on high ground with a commanding view over the low ground occupied by the British. Mounting an attack there was known to be suicidal.

However, the Germans were known to be preparing an offensive of their own, and the French army on the British flank was at the point of mutiny. It was recognised that if the Germans got wind of the potential weakness, they would bring all their force to bear on the French, over-run them and out flank the British lines. Things were getting pretty acrimonious between the British and French, and the French General Staff requested the British to mount an offensive to take the pressure off the French lines and buy them time to sort out their discipline problem, reinforce the line with fresh troops (many from French colonies) and then begin planning for an offensive in 1917. Reluctantly, the British agreed that an offensive over the Somme was the lesser of the two evils.

The concept of 'lions led by donkeys' is a product of revisionist historians, primarily Clarke, with no foundation in truth. The death rate amongst senior officers in the British army was in fact higher than that for other ranks. They led from the front and were well aware of what they were asking their subordinates to do. Before perpetuating the myths of the revisionists, check the primary sources - all available at the National Archive at Kew.*



*Blackadder does not constitute a primary source.

my , we are a well read badger !

meles meles wrote:*Blackadder does not constitute a primary source.

No but it is highly amusing!

Having been to the Somme these pictures bring back the whole feelings I felt on the visit.
You drive a few miles and there is a Graveyard (every credit to the Commonwealth Graves Commission for keeping these graveyards in good condition). You then drive another few miles if that and there is another graveyard.
Anyone that has been to the Somme will know just what I am on about, for those that have not been there it is well worth a visit.

Sam

meles meles wrote: The concept of 'lions led by donkeys' is a product of revisionist historians, primarily Clarke, with no foundation in truth. The death rate amongst senior officers in the British army was in fact higher than that for other ranks. They led from the front and were well aware of what they were asking their subordinates to do. Before perpetuating the myths of the revisionists, check the primary sources - all available at the National Archive at Kew.*



*Blackadder does not constitute a primary source.

Calling Clarke a historian is frankly an insult to historians, the whole 'lions led by donkeys' which he claims a German staff officer wrote is utter s***, there is no account of it, except a press report about the British in the Crimean War if I recall.

You are spot on with the death rates badger, and if all is taken into account Montgomery was a bigger butcher than Haig, soldiers were far more likely to die in Normandy than they were on the Somme.

With regards to the Somme itself my understanding was there was some division among the staff, Haig wanted another push in Flanders but others wanted a joint op with the French to improve relations, hence the Somme. Some thought it was bad terrain, others were just thankful it wasn't Flanders. The defences at the planning stage were not formidable but as soon as the Germans got wind of what was happening (which didn't take too long) they rapidly improved the defences, by that point (to paraphrase AJP Taylor) the timetables of war had started and the British Command felt they couldn't turn their backs on it, especially with the Verdun offensive being launched.