The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

I had the last club comp of my TR season today - it was my second year with the Swing Mk4, and with some excellent advice (mainly on here) my shooting has improved...

...I'm happy with the rifle set-up and comfortable with my position, but are having problems with elevation - Looking at the last 6 score-cards (3 x 300/600) the windage is all within a 2 min group (which I'm happy with), but the elevation spreads 2 to 2.5 mins...if all shots were within half a minute of the horizontal center line then instead of scoring 48, 43, 47, 48, 46, 47, they'd be 49, 47, 49, 49, 49, 48...

...so what causes elevation problems in TR shooting?...and how do you perfect staying on the center-line?

Have you taken into account wind up and down the range? Can be a bit tricky with lifting/dropping the shots.

Good point; but the conditions were pretty good for the last three shoots...nothing that should cause more than half a minute up or down...

Butt position in shoulder?

Always a cause of elevation spread?

Do you plot your elevation during or after the shoot if so the trend may tell you something? plot corrected elevation to see a trend. (sinking rising) did you use to shoot small bore TR? if so your position may be too high (but this usually causes windage problems too) do you cant? if so A. DONT! in FB-TR :-) & B. Without a spirit level you will never do it consistently in SBR.

Vast majority of elevation deviations are caused by the person & technique, then the bit of kit, then the range effect (unless out to 1000 when Sticks has particular elevation effects & spin drift) & ammo!

Shots high - cheek piece pressure? is it in the right place? (in aim too long? neck rests> cheek pressure up pushes butt down thus muzzle up = shot high) & tight sling (bull, high, bull, high etc), low/high due to loose sling & head lifting or pull on trigger release. Not using the rest position between shots, changing the location of the right elbow when going into aim, being harsh or strong armed in bolt manipulation (so you damage your position by creeping things like shoulder location), not putting the butt deliberately & accurately in the shoulder, trigger finger too low on the trigger. not gripping the whole stock with the trigger hand Squeeze & release using the thumb/fingers & trigger finger can pull shots low. Breathing? smallbore R shoulder forward / FB R shoulder back or a bit of both?so some are fwd (shots down) or back (shots higher).

Kit causes - bedding contaminated or poor?, trigger pressure too high? slack in the rear-sight or lost motion in the elevation thread - backlash, rear iris too large. or foresight element too small - loose things in sights (wobble in rear iris), eye contact on rubber eye cup? (can cause a flinch reaction). small-bore mat - too thick & spongy so your elbow sinks over the shoot.

Range - temperature can cause changes in pressure leading to elevation changes but usually fairly small, water introduces steam to increase pressure (keep ammo dry), sun up sights up, sun effects can cause down range heating & thermals that can change your MPAim. Keep ammo cool/constant temperature (box & shade under a bar towel). Old leather sling? stretches when wet or over the shoot, jacket too big so shoulders slide over to sling side?

So take a look at your technique (or best get someone else to watch) eliminate these & check your kit & try to use the same ammo type till you know the effects.

e.g. After a couple of years & eliminating most of these ! I noted RG needs about +1moa mean point of impact & my homebrew is -1moa on RUAG, my elevation is also different across the 300yds butts because the FP is not flat along its length so Butt 18-19 i take half a min off my first sighter.

2 seasons - its takes time so spend more behind the butt & get an experienced person to watch your techniques. Also rebuilding your shooting position from foundations up can pay dividends & undo learned errors. Remember shooting is not about knowing its 'auto-genic' i.e. your body learns how to & your eye tells your brain when too pull the darned trigger. so try doing a shot as sight picture = 1 seconds & 'hey that will do' & see if its better?

good luck & ask for help plenty out there only to happy to assist.

Top advice from hitchphil there (and I recommend getting him to have a look at your position - a tip he gave me about leg/foot positioning added a consistent point or two onto my scores! :cheers: )

I had/have the same problem with elevation, every so often I'll throw one or two shots well low at 6 o'clock. This usually costs me a possible. I've tracked down the cause to a combination of varying butt position on the shoulder (an old bugbear of mine) and varying right elbow position. I've shrunk it from 2.5 minutes to about 1 - 1.5 max whenever it happens, and I'm gradually getting better at maintaining a solid position.

Years ago, as a stopgap measure, I got some masking tape and had a friend mark out where the butt went in my shoulder and where my right elbow went on the mat. My scores went from mid-high 40s to consistently top-end 40s, and it was fascinating to see how what I thought was the same position by feel was actually quite a long way off each time. Might be worth a go as a diagnostic measure?

I will say it's far more likely to be you than your kit. I convinced myself the buttplate of my rifle (which is ever so slightly loose, thanks to it being secured with a self-tapping screw which was overtightened at one stage) was to blame for the variation ... until the day I shot a 50.8.

hitchphil wrote:Do you plot your elevation during or after the shoot if so the trend may tell you something? plot corrected elevation to see a trend. (sinking rising) did you use to shoot small bore TR? if so your position may be too high (but this usually causes windage problems too) do you cant? if so A. DONT! in FB-TR :-) & B. Without a spirit level you will never do it consistently in SBR.

Vast majority of elevation deviations are caused by the person & technique, then the bit of kit, then the range effect (unless out to 1000 when Sticks has particular elevation effects & spin drift) & ammo!

Shots high - cheek piece pressure? is it in the right place? (in aim too long? neck rests> cheek pressure up pushes butt down thus muzzle up = shot high) & tight sling (bull, high, bull, high etc), low/high due to loose sling & head lifting or pull on trigger release. Not using the rest position between shots, changing the location of the right elbow when going into aim, being harsh or strong armed in bolt manipulation (so you damage your position by creeping things like shoulder location), not putting the butt deliberately & accurately in the shoulder, trigger finger too low on the trigger. not gripping the whole stock with the trigger hand Squeeze & release using the thumb/fingers & trigger finger can pull shots low. Breathing? smallbore R shoulder forward / FB R shoulder back or a bit of both?so some are fwd (shots down) or back (shots higher).

Kit causes - bedding contaminated or poor?, trigger pressure too high? slack in the rear-sight or lost motion in the elevation thread - backlash, rear iris too large. or foresight element too small - loose things in sights (wobble in rear iris), eye contact on rubber eye cup? (can cause a flinch reaction). small-bore mat - too thick & spongy so your elbow sinks over the shoot.

Range - temperature can cause changes in pressure leading to elevation changes but usually fairly small, water introduces steam to increase pressure (keep ammo dry), sun up sights up, sun effects can cause down range heating & thermals that can change your MPAim. Keep ammo cool/constant temperature (box & shade under a bar towel). Old leather sling? stretches when wet or over the shoot, jacket too big so shoulders slide over to sling side?

So take a look at your technique (or best get someone else to watch) eliminate these & check your kit & try to use the same ammo type till you know the effects.

e.g. After a couple of years & eliminating most of these ! I noted RG needs about +1moa mean point of impact & my homebrew is -1moa on RUAG, my elevation is also different across the 300yds butts because the FP is not flat along its length so Butt 18-19 i take half a min off my first sighter.

2 seasons - its takes time so spend more behind the butt & get an experienced person to watch your techniques. Also rebuilding your shooting position from foundations up can pay dividends & undo learned errors. Remember shooting is not about knowing its 'auto-genic' i.e. your body learns how to & your eye tells your brain when too pull the darned trigger. so try doing a shot as sight picture = 1 seconds & 'hey that will do' & see if its better?

good luck & ask for help plenty out there only to happy to assist.

How will I ever remember that! Everytime I get down I run through about ten things. I even have them jotted down on my score book. I'm still struggling.

hitchphil wrote:Do you plot your elevation during or after the shoot if so the trend may tell you something? plot corrected elevation to see a trend. (sinking rising) did you use to shoot small bore TR? if so your position may be too high (but this usually causes windage problems too) do you cant? if so A. DONT! in FB-TR :-) & B. Without a spirit level you will never do it consistently in SBR.

Vast majority of elevation deviations are caused by the person & technique, then the bit of kit, then the range effect (unless out to 1000 when Sticks has particular elevation effects & spin drift) & ammo!

Shots high - cheek piece pressure? is it in the right place? (in aim too long? neck rests> cheek pressure up pushes butt down thus muzzle up = shot high) & tight sling (bull, high, bull, high etc), low/high due to loose sling & head lifting or pull on trigger release. Not using the rest position between shots, changing the location of the right elbow when going into aim, being harsh or strong armed in bolt manipulation (so you damage your position by creeping things like shoulder location), not putting the butt deliberately & accurately in the shoulder, trigger finger too low on the trigger. not gripping the whole stock with the trigger hand Squeeze & release using the thumb/fingers & trigger finger can pull shots low. Breathing? smallbore R shoulder forward / FB R shoulder back or a bit of both?so some are fwd (shots down) or back (shots higher).

Kit causes - bedding contaminated or poor?, trigger pressure too high? slack in the rear-sight or lost motion in the elevation thread - backlash, rear iris too large. or foresight element too small - loose things in sights (wobble in rear iris), eye contact on rubber eye cup? (can cause a flinch reaction). small-bore mat - too thick & spongy so your elbow sinks over the shoot.

Range - temperature can cause changes in pressure leading to elevation changes but usually fairly small, water introduces steam to increase pressure (keep ammo dry), sun up sights up, sun effects can cause down range heating & thermals that can change your MPAim. Keep ammo cool/constant temperature (box & shade under a bar towel). Old leather sling? stretches when wet or over the shoot, jacket too big so shoulders slide over to sling side?

So take a look at your technique (or best get someone else to watch) eliminate these & check your kit & try to use the same ammo type till you know the effects.

e.g. After a couple of years & eliminating most of these ! I noted RG needs about +1moa mean point of impact & my homebrew is -1moa on RUAG, my elevation is also different across the 300yds butts because the FP is not flat along its length so Butt 18-19 i take half a min off my first sighter.

2 seasons - its takes time so spend more behind the butt & get an experienced person to watch your techniques. Also rebuilding your shooting position from foundations up can pay dividends & undo learned errors. Remember shooting is not about knowing its 'auto-genic' i.e. your body learns how to & your eye tells your brain when too pull the darned trigger. so try doing a shot as sight picture = 1 seconds & 'hey that will do' & see if its better?

good luck & ask for help plenty out there only to happy to assist.

Great answer thanks!

Since I changed rifles 2 years ago I stopped plotting - I had just started doing it...it identified a rising trend in the first five shots with my other rifle, which was very useful - I'm not sure why I stopped (other than I was having enough problems with just getting comfortable), but I definitely need to start again...

I used to shoot smallbore (10 bull), but not for 20 years - Cant could be an issue...as I use an iris without 'cross-bars' (not sure of the correct term...), it's hard to tell...so a spirit level could be a good idea.

I'm finally happy with my position - It's pretty low, and I think my head position is good...it certainly feels better than it ever has...but, I'm not sure about the butt position and now I think of it my right elbow could well be part of the problem...

Sighting is another, possibly separate matter - I started wearing glasses last year...I tried an eagle-eye, but as I'm long sighted it made things worse, but by opening up the front aperture a bit I can still get a crisp image...but only for a few seconds; so have to get the shot away or stop and start again...

Thanks too Bernard and Gaz - Interesting that you're also talking about shoulder position and your right elbow...I definitely reckon it's part of the problem.

There's obviously more to it; but if I consentrate next season on the shoulder elbow thing, start plotting again and get a spirit-level for my front sight, it's got to be worth a point or two

:cheers: Gents.

Watcher - Be assured after a couple more seasons you will add to that list & key is you dont remember them, you learn to just do them or by training you eliminate them so don't have to correct/worry about them........

Position: get a coach or someone to help you - DIY practice to refine your position dry firing:- take up position cycle a non rnd, sight, 1st stage pressure on trigger - aim, close eyes count '2-3' open eyes & snap shot the image in your eye - correct from where it drifted by moving the body or part or kit. Do that until when you open your eyes its still plumb there in the foresight. That will build a good position & you can do it at home aiming at a dot on the wall or at a target down the garden. n gaffer tape a spirit level bubble on where you can see it. If the cheek piece wont adjust gaffer tape layers of foam till it does.

Repeat that from the rest position till that is consistent too.

Tip put thumb on top back of butt plate & put it in the shoulder deliberately & feeling for the same place - then arm fwd to close the bolt, then touch your left hand, then grip the stock & elbow down - try it (in effect this practice drill closes the shoulder around the butt in the same place & way & sets the right arm / trigger grip down in the same position for each shot). These repetitive practices train the body to feel the right position. Its like learning riding a bike it should feel right every time.

Repeat it again from the rifle out of both hands position till that is good too. That gives you a good starting position & if you get up walk about between that gives you the ability to get down, position, set sights & V the first sighter.

Get someone to watch or video yourself, post the video of you- from behind & in line with the firing line & many will comment ... (some even to do with your shooting! :-))