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Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:49 pm
by The Lord Flashheart
Further to the previous threads I have had a reply from Hodgdon themselves on the use of 777 in BP arms:
When looking at the loads listed for Triple Seven powder in Cap and Ball revolvers, we are intending to show the best possible range of loads using Triple Seven. In this instance, we developed loads for 20 grains of Triple Seven and 25 grains of Triple Seven. With this data, we intend for shooters to use loads of 20gr to 25 gr and any point between the 20gr and 25 gr loads. One may want to try measuring 23 gr of Triple Seven to see what the results would be, or 24gr or 22 gr. Any point from 20gr to 25 gr would be safe.
One may feel free to use either a lubricated felt wad or dry felt wad between the powder and the ball. No food products should be used as filler in these loads, only felt wads(s).
The ball must always be seated firmly upon the powder charge allowing no airspace between the powder and ball.
BUT, one must check the owner's manual that came with the revolver for information showing maximum allowable loads and one must never exceed the revolver makers maximum load.
Our powder measurements are always done by volume and NEVER by weight. I use an adjustable measure/spout on a flask for loading my C&B revolvers. Certainly, one might choose to use the same adjustable black powder measure used for a black powder rifle. ,
If there are any other questions, please feel free to contact me
Mike Daly
Senior Customer Service Representative
The Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
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Triple Seven
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-----Original Message-----
From: Amir
Sent: Wednesday, August 2, 2017 11:38 AM
To: Mike Daly
Subject: 777 loading for BP pistols
Dear Mike,
Further to our telephone conversation of today please confirm whether the load recommendations for 777 BP substitute given on your website are a range of valid charge values or discrete loads?
In other words and to take the example of a new army Remington, are 20 and 25 the only acceptable charges or would a range between them be acceptable?
With thanks in advance for your assistance in this matter,
Yours,
Amir
Sent from my boing
So in summary, any charges within the ranges given and any felt war within reason.
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:36 am
by dromia
Good to know as that is now different from the response that they gave me when I spoke with them shortly after the powder first became available here, I assume that they have now tested loads 'tween 20-25 gns.
It should be noted that this is a very narrow safe load window which in itself speaks volumes about the narrow properties of the powder.
Work up loads 'tween 20-25 gns by all means but if you go outwith that you are still on your own, a very limited powder indeed and obviously still not considered safe for general black powder applications by Hodgdon.
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:10 am
by daman
I'm using 777 while waiting for my BP licence to arrive. Many sources recommend loading it 15% less by volume than a known Black Powder load.
The following conversion chart may be useful to move between 777 and BP if you know a good load using either.
e.g. 21 grains of 777 ~= 24.7 grains of BP
and 26 grains of BP ~= 22.1 grains of 777
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:17 am
by dromia
Is that a Hodgdon chart, conversion recommendation?
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:39 am
by daman
Unfortunately not, the safety data sheet on the the Hodgdon site has gone 404.
The warning to reduce the load by 15% is echoed on many American forums and it's providence seems to go back to an email sent by the company in 2003 (google "Hodgdon 777 15%" to see many threads on the topic).
The chart above is just from an excel spreadsheet I knocked up for my own use.
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:48 am
by dromia
I'd like to see current verification of that email and that conversion used beyond their published data by Hodgdon before I would recommend that chart/conversion.
Unless they are changing the product all this tripple 7 use beyond their data just seems an accident waiting to happen.
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:57 am
by Dark Skies
daman wrote:Unfortunately not, the safety data sheet on the the Hodgdon site has gone 404.
The warning to reduce the load by 15% is echoed on many American forums and it's providence seems to go back to an email sent by the company in 2003 (google "Hodgdon 777 15%" to see many threads on the topic).
The chart above is just from an excel spreadsheet I knocked up for my own use.
I've seen that too - but in the majority of the cases the discussion seemed to centre on brass framed reproduction western revolvers and their concern regarding stretching under load.
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 11:43 am
by The Lord Flashheart
This is good news because it means it should be easier to find accuracy with my pistol, when i finally get it...
The reason I have been given for preferring 777 over pyrodex is that the fouling is easier to clean up and it seems to be what most of the chaps at the club use, otherwise I would be looking into that too.
Hopefully it will work and I may look into getting an explosives license for proper BP in due course.
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:21 am
by dromia
As I have said previously I would get Hodgdon to confirm that conversion ratio as safe for muzzle loading revolvers before applying it to give loads outwith their recommended 20 to 25 gns.
As regards cleaning, tripple 7 is the most hygroscopic of all muzzle loading powders and although there may be less fouling from it every bit must be removed after use which means an immediate strip down and clean of the gun after its use if you want to avoid corrosion problems especially to the fragile internal springs and parts.
There are dealers who will not take in second hand muzzle loading guns that have had substitutes used in them for this very reason. Black powder fouling is relatively forgiving in this respect whereas the substitutes aren't.
All muzzle loading guns need cleaning regardless of the powder used but the substitutes and tripple 7 most of all needs that cleaning to be prompt and thorough both internal and external.
So although there may seem less fouling with tripple seven it needs cleaning more.
Re: Hodgdon 777 muzzle loading pistol data from hodgdon
Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:19 am
by Sim G
As with Adam, the advice given by Hodgdon now is not what I was given 15 years ago or so. At that time it was literally use either 20 or 25gns by volume and one lubed wad. Anything outside of this powder tower may give extreme results and never use any filler except wads with this charge as compression will also effect the performance...
I don't use Triple 7 anymore. Even stacked against other substitutes, well Pyrodex as it's the only other available, it's a poor second. Pyrodex indoors and black powder outside. Hopefully the indoor range specs will be amended soon as BP is far better than Pyrodex.