The UK's Finest Independent Forum for Shooters and Gun Owners. Est 2010.

I would appreciate some clarity on this hypothetical situation, which may some day come to pass.

As we know the safe shooters certificate was the price we had to pay to the MoD to continue shooting on military ranges when they were changing the foot/lbs limit on their ranges.

Hats of to the NRA as it was one of the things they have stepped up to the mark on in respect of representing shooting and shooters. Some may say that if Bisley wasn't an MoD range then they wouldn't have been as quick of the mark, but that we will never know.

Anyway my question is about the liability on clubs and club chairmen who sign off safe shooters certificates in the event of a tragedy, fatal or otherwise, on an MoD range hired by a civilian club.

In the event of such a happening there would be an investigation into the circumstances and more than likely a blame game and finger pointing exercise would be pursued, especially if the injured party or parties were to sue for damages. In this scenario let us assume that the accident was solely due to grossly unsafe actions by the perpetrator that could not have been prevented by other shooters present or the RCO.

No doubt the MoD would point to the Safe Shooters Certificate as their guarantee that civilian shooters using their ranges were competent to do so.

In relation to the NRA what would their stance be? That the responsibility on ensuring the competence of the shooters came down onto the person signing off the shooter and issuing the safe shooters card which certifies the competence of the shooter?

So would there be any blame attached to the Chairman for signing off this shooter if he and the club could not evidence any documented process of ensuring that the shooter was competent to use ranges?

If so is there a documented minimum standard of competence that shooters have to demonstrate to be eligible for the Safe Shooters Certificate and a defined process for clubs and chairmen to use to establish the competence of shooters?

I know that existing shooters got granny rights to the cards at the time of their introduction, so how would this stand up in a legal context in this scenario?

For shooters coming into the art post Safe Shooters Certificates introduction should clubs have a documented course of instruction and competence to ensure basic safety to obtain a Certificate.

The NRA I believe requires new members of their club to undergo such a probationary course to shoot at Bisley. When I attended the NRA instructors course at Bisley in September 2009 we were trained on the NRA Probationary Training Course and told that this was the standard for issuing safe shooters certificates to new members. The only problem was that the course was more a target rifle safe shooters course geared to shooting at Bisley and not readily transferable to real world centre fire clubs.

Is the same probationary course still in use? If so is this the template for other clubs to use to evidence the safety competence of new shooters and is this the standard of competence that all shooters who obtained granny rights are assumed to have.

A few chairmen I have spoken to do feel concerned about the responsibility off signing of new shooters in the absence of an accredited course and paper trail with which to sign of shooters in order to protect them and their clubs in the event of a scenario as I have just outlined

Definitive clarity on this would be most appreciated.

Lots of good questions here which I will answer one at a time:

In relation to the NRA what would their stance be? That the responsibility on ensuring the competence of the shooters came down onto the person signing off the shooter and issuing the safe shooters card which certifies the competence of the shooter?

The responsibility for issuing the SSC's is 100% down to the club chairman. They can delegate the assessment process to suitable people within the club but they are ultimately responsible. The form that they have to sign annually states:

• I will certify all members who request to be certified and who I judge to be safe and competent.

So would there be any blame attached to the Chairman for signing off this shooter if he and the club could not evidence any documented process of ensuring that the shooter was competent to use ranges?

Another bit from the same form states:

• I will maintain adequate records of our training and certification systems for possible audit by the NRA or MoD.

If they cannot evidence it then the club/chairman is to blame for not putting in place what he/she has agreed/signed to.

If so is there a documented minimum standard of competence that shooters have to demonstrate to be eligible for the Safe Shooters Certificate and a defined process for clubs and chairmen to use to establish the competence of shooters?

Yes there is. When this all came about every club was sent a pack that had all the relevant information in it. All that info is on our website:

http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/certif ... p?site=NRA

and at SSC renewal time each year clubs are directed towards that info or can request a paper copy. The relevant bit for this question is 'Annex D, Appendix 1 - Assessment Form download'. All Annex's should be read in conjunction with 'Letter to Clubs Affiliated to the NRA download'

I know that existing shooters got granny rights to the cards at the time of their introduction, so how would this stand up in a legal context in this scenario?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'granny rights' but if you mean got it without having to prove competence, then you are certainly wrong from the NRA point of view. No clubs got (or get) cards from us without the chairman signing the form and no NRA members get an NRA card without complying with the application process. This is something we have to be whiter than white on and I do not allow deviation. The number of times we hear 'but I'm a life member' or 'but surely you know who I am?' are ridiculous but it doesn't get them anywhere!

For shooters coming into the art post Safe Shooters Certificates introduction should clubs have a documented course of instruction and competence to ensure basic safety to obtain a Certificate.

From the same form as above:

• Any new members to our club will complete the NRA probationary training course (either run by the NRA or by ourselves). If our club wants to use our own course, we will apply for accreditation by the NRA.

The NRA I believe requires new members of their club to undergo such a probationary course to shoot at Bisley. When I attended the NRA instructors course at Bisley in September 2009 we were trained on the NRA Probationary Training Course and told that this was the standard for issuing safe shooters certificates to new members. The only problem was that the course was more a target rifle safe shooters course geared to shooting at Bisley and not readily transferable to real world centre fire clubs.

Is the same probationary course still in use? If so is this the template for other clubs to use to evidence the safety competence of new shooters and is this the standard of competence that all shooters who obtained granny rights are assumed to have.

No it's not. As a result of certification we have been able to completely re-vamp our probationary course. It is now modular with an initial compulsory safety/legal module that also gives them a taster of all the different types of firearms we teach. Then they elect to do one or more modules depending on what they want to learn about. Needless to say the scoped rifle module is the most popular!

This is also laid out in the newer probationary training manuals and instructor packs.

A few chairmen I have spoken to do feel concerned about the responsibility off signing of new shooters in the absence of an accredited course and paper trail with which to sign of shooters in order to protect them and their clubs in the event of a scenario as I have just outlined

In that case I suggest they actually read what they are signing each year and ask us for the required materials to avoid this happening!

Out of interest I have copied the complete section of declarations from the form:

As Chairman of the club named above, I agree that:

• Our club will follow the NRA Safe Shooting System.

• I will certify all members who request to be certified and who I judge to be safe and competent.

• I will ensure that anyone shooting with the Club holds a valid certificate from a club affiliated to the NRA except in the case of Probationary members or those listed in Appendix 3 to the MoD agreement.

• Any new members to our club will complete the NRA probationary training course (either run by the NRA or by ourselves). If our club wants to use our own course, we will apply for accreditation by the NRA.

• I will maintain adequate records of our training and certification systems for possible audit by the NRA or MoD.

• I agree that our club will take part in any investigation conducted jointly by the NRA and the MoD following an incident on an MoD range and will require our members to assist fully in any such investigation.

• I understand that only cards issued by the NRA are valid. Replication of these cards is considered an NRA disciplinary offence.

• I understand that the cards are only valid whilst the person they are issued to is still a member of this club.


Signature: ………………………………………………………………….



Hopefully that has answered your questions - please note that I'm on holiday at the moment and once back may not be able to spend as much time so quickly although I will try to. Somehow after 10-11 hours at work I don't want to turn a pc on when I get home - no idea why not :roll: :lol:

Heather

Thanks Heather.

I appreciate that you are on holiday so if anyone else from the NRA wants to answer please do.

Where do we down load the training packs, instructor packs and modular information from and is this the NRA safe shooting system referred to? and how does this relate to 'Annex D, Appendix 1 - Assessment Form download'?

When was this announced to clubs and to whom was the information sent?

In relation to the Granny Rights bit does that mean that all shooters issued with certificates need to have that paper work to back them up?

Too hot to sunbathe anyway!!

Where do we down load the training packs, instructor packs and modular information from and is this the NRA safe shooting system referred to? and how does this relate to 'Annex D, Appendix 1 - Assessment Form download'?


They are purchaseable items and can be ordered from Caroline in training. Drop her an email on training@nra.org.uk for prices - apparently I keep quoting too much!

The assessment form shows you what areas have to be covered as a minimum to gain a card.

The safe shooting system is in the bible, downloadable from:

http://www.nra.org.uk/common/asp/conten ... RA&id=1073

When was this announced to clubs and to whom was the information sent?


Off the top of my head it was May 2008. All info was sent to affiliated club secretaries as that's who we send everything to.

In relation to the Granny Rights bit does that mean that all shooters issued with certificates need to have that paper work to back them up?

The clubs have to keep relevant paperwork in case of audit but, yes, all shooters with cards should have paperwork to back them up. How else can the club show that they have issued the card in accordance with what they have signed for?

Heather

dromia wrote: in the event of a tragedy, fatal or otherwise, on an MoD range hired by a civilian club......... there would be an investigation into the circumstances and more than likely a blame game and finger pointing exercise would be pursued, especially if the injured party or parties were to sue for damages.

Surely a death or serious injury would be a police matter for investigation, to be subsequently dealt with by the courts. The court would decide who was to blame. Would they really try to pin this on the Chairman of the perpetrator's club because he signed a bit of paper? I very much doubt it.

For the record - I've never heard of the blame landing on a driving school instructor or driving test examiner in the event of a serious car accident caused by one of their pupils.

Vince

As a one-time cadet weapon instructor, I know a little about how the MoD system works...

As I understood it, as long as you'd played your part in the system in accordance with the laid down pamphlets and manuals, you were OK. Thus, if I conducted my weapon handling tests strictly in accordance with the relevant book (and kept paperwork recording that I'd done so), then if my cadet went on to screw up on the range, I wouldn't get it in the neck at the board of enquiry. Similar process for delivering initial weapon training - paperwork in order, lessons correctly delivered, job jobbed.

I imagine the NRA system would be pretty similar, given that the MoD demanded it be imposed.

Would seem reasonable to me as well.

Heather