"Club" licensing ...

[zzr1100]

Hopefully someone can clarify this one ..
There is an outdoor shoot with the club on sunday ..I was told (by a fellow member) that I could take a club .308 home on Friday, shoot it Sunday and return it on Monday ... I didn't want to take the chance I'm getting a fellow member with an empty .308 slot to take the rifle and some ammo for me ...
So who is right ???

[IainWR]

What you were told is probably legal. It all turns on the interpretation of Section 15 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as amended. I quote the whole thing below to forestall the inevitable "but what about ..." questions that otherwise arise. First, please read para (1) with great care, and identify the four conditions which must be met in order to do what you suggest:

Approved rifle clubs and muzzle-loading pistol clubs.

(1)Subject to subsection (4) below, a member of a rifle club approved by the Secretary of State or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998) may, without holding a firearm certificate, have in his possession a rifle and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in connection with target shooting.

(2)Any rifle club may apply for approval, whether or not it is intended that any club members will, by virtue of subsection (1) above, have rifles or ammunition in their possession without holding firearm certificates.

(3)The Secretary of State may publish such guidance as he considers appropriate for the purpose of informing those seeking approval for a club of criteria that must be met before any application for such approval will be considered.

(4)The application of subsection (1) above to members of an approved rifle club may—
(a)be excluded in relation to the club, or
(b)be restricted to target shooting with specified types of rifle,
by limitations contained in the approval.

(5)An approval—
(a)may be granted subject to such conditions specified in it as the Secretary of State thinks [F3or, as the case may be, the Scottish Ministers think] fit;
(b)may at any time be varied or withdrawn by the Secretary of State [F3or, as the case may be, the Scottish Ministers]; and
(c)shall (unless withdrawn) continue in force for six years from the date on which it is granted or last renewed.

(6)There shall be payable on the grant or renewal of an approval a fee of £84 but this subsection shall be included in the provisions which may be amended by an order under section 43 of the principal Act.

(7)A constable or civilian officer authorised in writing in that behalf may, on producing if required his authority, enter any premises occupied or used by an approved rifle club and inspect those premises, and anything on them, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the provisions of this section, and any limitations or conditions in the approval, are being complied with.

(8)The power of a constable or civilian officer under subsection (7) above to inspect anything on club premises shall include power to require any information which is kept by means of a computer and is accessible from the premises to be made available for inspection in a visible and legible form.

(9)It is an offence for a person intentionally to obstruct a constable or civilian officer in the exercise of his powers under subsection (7) above; and that offence shall be punishable on summary conviction with a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

(10)In this section and section 15A below—
“approval”, means an approval under this section; and “approved” shall be construed accordingly;
“civilian officer” has the same meaning as in the principal Act; and
“rifle club” includes a miniature rifle club.

(11)This section applies in relation to a muzzle-loading pistol club and its members as it applies to a rifle club and its members with the substitution for any reference to a rifle of a reference to a muzzle-loading pistol.
(12)In subsection (11) above—

“muzzle-loading pistol club” means a club where muzzle-loading pistols are used for target shooting; and
“muzzle-loading pistol” means a pistol designed to be loaded at the muzzle end of the barrel or chamber with a loose charge and a separate ball (or other missile).


The critical argument you need to consider is the extent of "in connection with target shooting". There are, unsurprisingly, very few court cases to establish the limits of "in connection with". There has been one case where someone who kept a club gun for a month was held to have broken the law ie the exemption in S15 from the need under S1 Firearms Act 1968 to have a FAC did not apply. All that that establishes is that in those circumstances a month was too long. It does not establish where the boundary actually is. My view is that what was suggested to you would be OK. But until someone gets charged and it goes to court and there is a decision, we do not know.

Iain
NRA Firearms Liaison

[zzr1100]

Ian, thanks very much for that clarification ... I must admit I'm surprised !
Still, it will make things easier for the next outdoors shoot if my ticket hasn't arrived by then !!

[IainWR]

I must admit that I'm surprised that you are surprised.

Clubs really should explain to new members, somewhere in their probationary training, which bit of the law it is that allows them to have a rifle without a FAC - and what the limits of that bit of the law are.

Iain
just my view, not NRA on this post

[hitchphil]

Our club operates as per Iain’s suggestion but with some extra limitations:

The member is a full member & is safe certificated for that type of rifle.
If 2 are going one takes the bolt(s) / ammo in a locked tin box, the other the rifle(s)
The rifles are trigger locked, cased & never left in a car.
They are secured to the car boot out of sight etc with a chain / wire 'thingy' during travel & they don’t stop at McDonalds.
They carry a letter & a photocopy copy of the club FAC.
Its less than 2-3 days.
Its a club shoot not an individual blatt (unless they have entered an event & are representing the club by name & published score (i.e. a formal TR match).

It usually applies to 0.22 as the FB stuff is stored at Bisley.

Some might say that’s OTT & more than legally required but we think it demonstrates we have taken reasonable precautions & is a defendable position in the event of FLO 'intervention'.

[IainWR]

Our club operates as per Iain’s suggestion but with some extra limitations:

The member is a full member & is safe certificated for that type of rifle.
If 2 are going one takes the bolt(s) / ammo in a locked tin box, the other the rifle(s)
The rifles are trigger locked, cased & never left in a car.
They are secured to the car boot out of sight etc with a chain / wire 'thingy' during travel & they don’t stop at McDonalds.
They carry a letter & a photocopy copy of the club FAC.
Its less than 2-3 days.
Its a club shoot not an individual blatt (unless they have entered an event & are representing the club by name & published score (i.e. a formal TR match).

It usually applies to 0.22 as the FB stuff is stored at Bisley.

Some might say that’s OTT & more than legally required but we think it demonstrates we have taken reasonable precautions & is a defendable position in the event of FLO 'intervention'.

The first of those is sensible.
The next four are advised in the Guidance or the Security manual.
The next is a good guess as to the law.
The last is a legal requirement.

Iain

[Ginger]

Hi Iain,

have you had chance to clarify the situation with long barrelled revolvers on club tickets? I believe Avon and Somerset allowing them as the CC is signing them off as if you read the complete act apparently it is down to the CC.

I might have missed your posts / reply on this before.

[IainWR]

Hi Iain,

have you had chance to clarify the situation with long barrelled revolvers on club tickets? I believe Avon and Somerset allowing them as the CC is signing them off as if you read the complete act apparently it is down to the CC.

It is indeed down to the Chief Constable as to whether he grants a variation to acquire a LBR (or anything else) on a Club (or any other) FAC. That is covered by S27 Firearms Act 1968. The Chief Constable doing so does not affect the operation of S15 Firearms (Amendment) Act 1988 as quoted above. The fact that a gun is on a Club FAC is not authority for someone to possess said gun without a FAC. As I have said before, I can envisage in theory a FAC being worded in such a way as to bring all members of a Club within its authority, but I have never seen or heard of that being done explicitly. To pin down the legal point here, under S1 Firearms Act 1968, to possess a firearm you either need to hold a Certificate or be exempt under the Acts from holding a Certificate. For rifles and MLPs and members of HO Approved clubs, S15 of the 1988 Act provides the exemption. The question in respect of other types of firearm then becomes whether a Certificate issued to a Club is, for the purposes of S1(1)(a) Firearms Act 1968, "held" by all members of the Club. If that were so, then for firearms (of any type) on the Club FAC club members would be entitled to possess. I do not think that is the case - for instance, if a firearm is transferred to another FAC holder from my Club's FAC (which is in my name) it will be my signature that has to appear on the transferee's FAC, which suggests to me that I am the only person entitled to exercise the priveliges of possession granted by the Club FAC under S1(1)(a). I think that everyone else in the club possesses club guns under the exemption at S15 of the 1988 Act. I could be wrong. It will need a court to decide, in the same way as it would need a court to decide whether an LBR was a "rifle" for the purposes of S15 (I think it isn't - I could be wrong).

So, until someone gets charged for an offence involving the various elements, there will be no clarification.

Iain

[meles meles]

*Stirs the mud*

Anybody see owt yet, oomans?

[Ginger]

Hi Iain,

thank you for that, so a CC can authorise them but its all a grey area as you say until someone decides to test it all in a court of law.