My new Pedersoli Gibbs! (Which .451 part 2)

[Gazoo]

I'm still waiting for plod to knock on the door and accuse me of stealing it.

OK, fair enough....

Right, you thieving little toe-rag! Get that wrapped up and sent my way before I have you I front of the Beak to get what you justly deserve!

Or worse, I'll send saddler to you for the weekend where your fridge will be empty, your bathroom unusable and Lola pregnant!

Go on, go get some suitable packaging!

Errrmmm ?? just asking but Lola isn't the nice doggy in the picture is she? I mean I have heard some things about Saddler but......

[dromia]

Oyvinds book has some very nice pictures but like all todays coffee table books be sure and cross check the contents as many myths are perpetuated therein, no more so than anywhere else though. David Minshal's Research Press site is well worth study for the contemporary sources and is a sound starting point for understanding your gun and how it performs.

The best source of information about such guns is the contemporary sources where they were the cutting edge of their day, those sources are always my starting point as that then forms a sound basis for judging today's writers which is always worth doing as occasionally there is the odd new trick developed, mainly due to to the advent of modern materials. Look at my take on loading the Enfield with plastic tubes for example.

Also understanding the actual internals of your rifles barrel is essential so slugging it for its groove and bore dimensions is necessary as is understanding the shape and size of Pedesoli's partial patent breech.

The three wrap and nick is the standard method for getting the length of the paper, then just cut the ends at whatever angle suits you.

I wet wrap with spit, there is some shrinkage with wet wraps but not such that you would notice what it does do is snug the patch onto the bullet.

If you want to lube your bullet, which I don't, then water based wire pulling wax like Lee sell can be added to tap water and used to wet the patches, when the water evaporates the wax is left on the paper.

At the end of the day component choice, bullet making and loading is a personal thing between you and the rifle, you have to work through the combinations to see which conflation suits you both best.

These guns are quiet easy to get to shoot adequately however the beauty of black powder is the interesting journey(s) you can take to get them performing consistently well with excellent accuracy. This can only be achieved by range time, the beauty of muzzle loading is that the reloading and shooting are all part of the same process that happens at the firing point, unlike metallic reloading where it is usually done remotely, this gives an immediacy to the process of load development with easy tweaking at each shot that leaves an immense sense of satisfaction when you finally get it all together.

[legs748]

Well the journey starts here and I'm willing to share it from a tyro point of view, every day is a school day and I want to learn. I take it bore slugging a muzzle loader is just like pulling a dry ball?

[ResearchPress]

David Minshal's Research Press site is well worth study for the contemporary sources and is a sound starting point for understanding your gun and how it performs.

Thanks for the reference to my site: please note I am in the process of moving everything to a series of complimentray blogs. Most is now moved and can be accessed via: http://researchpress.blogspot.co.uk/

You'll see links on the front page to several blogs, content of which covers 19th century firearms and target shooting history.

There'll be a lot of load development work / experimentation that you can do, but start simply.

Powder, card wad, and bullet will suffice.

Most people I know who shoot these small-bore rifles load powder and wad. You can then wipe the bore with damp and dry patches before seating the bullet, to make sure you have consistent conditions between shots. Some wipe right to the breech, then load powder, wad and bullet. If doing the latter it can be worthwhile returning to the firing point and capping off before loading to be sure the flash hole is clear.

Have you checked the nipple - these can burn out quickly and the way around this (and as done in the 19thC) is to have a platinum lining.

These rifles are typically used with lead / tin alloy paper patched bullets for long range shooting. I'm currently using 30:1 lead:tin - some use harder some softer.

Have fun! :)


David

[legs748]

Hi David, I do dip in to your cool site regularly and it was Bill Curtis' managing the Enfield found there that sent me on this adventure, I love my ph two band and have barely scratched the surface with that!

On the subject of nipples, is there a gaugible size the hole needs to get to before its scrap? I was told it has a lined nipple on it but I bought a pair of beryllium ones as spares anyway.

What are the benefits of using a wad? Is it purely so the barrel can be swabbed out first? The bullets I have for paper patching are cup based slightly, will this have an effect on the wad against a flat bottom?

My other question is how does the bullet actually obturate if it flat bottomed and sized to less than bore diameter?

I feel a bit like goldielocks heading in to the woods, I have much to learn but need to see the wood for the trees!

[dromia]

To take a slug at the muzzle just have the lead big enough, say a 0.600" round ball, to allow it to be driven in 1/2" or so with enough at the muzzle for it to be eased out with a pair of vise grips.

You will notice on the target when the nipple is done. Platinum lined ones are the only way to go with these guns, berlyiums just aren't up to it, keep them for your Enfields.

Buy a platinum lined one from Jeff Tanner and then you know what you are starting with and you are removing another variable to assessing performance. I always start with a new nipple in any second hand percussion gun.

I wipe the barrel 'tween shots with a slightly damp patch followed by a dry patch both put down after the powder and wad so as not to get fouling in the ignition channel.

The bullet obdurates because of inertia, when the charge is ignited the arse starts moving before the nose of the bullet. By the time the nose starts moving the base is in the rifling.

The wad protects the base from dimpling and the patch from damage from unburnt powder and fouling being forced into it, try with and without a wad you never know how the gun and load will respond to changes 'till you try. I use a wad.

Why should the wad be an issue with the cupped base? It will just come off at the muzzle with the patch.

These guns are different from loading Minies, totally different bullet types so a different understanding and approach is required, accidie is is not helpful when working on these guns.

[ResearchPress]

If the nipple's gone and hammer starts lifting you'll get variations in MV and likely vertical stringing on the target.

The cupped base can be used to fold the tail of the paper patch into, some use flat based bullets and trim the tail off.

Metford in the 19thC looked at expansion of the bullet. He drilled a hole in the barrel that came through at a groove. This was .25" up from where the base of the bullet would sit. He put a screw in the hole that protruded through but did not go above the lands of the rifling. When he recovered fired bullets they had .25" score marks in them. This satisfied him that the bullet expansion was near enough instantaneous. He also did a lot of experiments with alloys.

David

[dromia]

When it comes to paper patching there are two books on the subject I would recommend.

The Paper Jacket by Paul Mathews which people of my generation will have cut their paper patching teeth on, no internet in every home in those sunny days.

A more modern how to is Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets A Beginners Guide. This more an instruction manual as opposed to Mathews being a discussion and instruction manual.

On the netty Brent Danielsons Paper Patched writings are about as good as it gets.

All these sources refer to paper patching in the context of the metallic cartridge but the principles are pretty much the same for muzzle loading.

[legs748]

Thanks for the input chaps, I appreciate it.

So my plan is to take rifle, bullets and powder to the range tomorrow, zero everything, then shoot at 50 and 100yds with the previous owners charge of 67gn of 1 1/5Fg Swiss. That will give me a benchmark to go from, I will report back on here. I'm not shy, and I'm not the greatest shot in the world but I want to be better than I am. New rifle, new loading drill, new bullets and a brand new day, let's go!

[legs748]

So I had the first shot with the Gibbs today, first impressions it's really nice. Settled in on a 50m range to get familiar with it. Powder funnel, powder, patched bullet snugged down on to the powder, cap off and bang! Then swab up and down twice with a dry patch and repeat. Halfway through the first group I had a misfire, easily sorted with a little fine powder through the nipple but irritating. I put this down to blocking the communication while wiping, so started to snap a cap off before loading again. Shooting was comfortable with a much less sharp recoil than a .577, more like a .303.

The second group proved I was still not controlling the fouling effectively, one bullet stripping it's patch on loading and another misfire leading to me losing a bit of focus on the shooting. I started using a baby wipe to swab, followed by a dry patch.

So lessons learned from day one;

1/ I need to try using an over powder wad to allow barrel cleaning without clogging the communication. 11mm wad punch and a stack of beermats already sourced.

2/ Use a smaller bull target. I used the same 6" bull target I use for my enfields, even with the biggest foresight element fitted I was struggling to halo the target at that short a range.

3/ The pedersoli jag is tight, really tight, it would struggle to push a fag paper down a fouled bore, never mind a wet patch. So maybe that needs a few thou off it to help with cleaning.

4/ Relax! Try to separate loading from shooting, a misfire should not be exasperating to the extent it effects your aim!

I wasn't able to shoot any more than 20 shots due to the range being rather underpopulated for a Tuesday, so there is still the grease groove bullets to try, hopefully later this week.




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