Gun storage - exceptions to general rules

[hitchphil]

A big problem with losing Sect(11)4 totally is then the cost of HO approval. To become a HO approved club you are now charged £444, then £372 every 5-6 years to renew. Then you are tied in to allsorts of HO procedures S21, & reporting like guest days & attendance records, shooting records, reporting inactive, non renewing members & more. The loss of S(11)4 will result in the closure of many small clubs who can't afford the financial burden. (Thats happening already with small HO approved clubs because of the cost introduction). Thats being driven by a very few inappropriate operations (Full Metal Jacket Ranges etc) who operate outside normal practice & in ignorance of the most basic safety requirements. I would say the general reaction from shooting clubs to FMJ at the time was horror! they recognise the threat to them & their safe, peaceful operations & public image.

Even if the proposal for S(11)4 was say proposed as a free FAC you can guarantee in the next review the 'free' bit will be dropped! another proposal is the operator should be 'an FAC holder' so has own or an existing club rifles. But again how long before that migrates to becoming a club 22 only FAC.

There are no vetting or approval even control processes for S(11)4 range operators. Any rogue can set one up. It's not the 100y history of little 22 target & gallery clubs thats the problem, it's the more recent chavs & spivs running 'for profit / video game' ranges like FMJ. They do need to be stopped, & to do that means the legitimate operators must pass some review. Possibly a requirement that a range to use S(11)4 is certificated safe & insured? but then you are in the realms of surveyors & range assessors & back to HO approval checks too.

[Chapuis]

Very well explained hitchphil. I wonder how many small-bore rifle shooters are unaware of this!

[Mattnall]

If it is so easy to buy firearms and ammunition without an FAC on the s11 exemption then why don't more people do it?
The simple answer is it is not as easy as many think. You first need to convince an RFD that you are operating a legitimate MR business or range and try this with the dealership at stake, that is after you somehow manage to set up a business actually operating a range.
But the sensationalist headlines that hint there is no control are designed to make people pull their hair and thump their chests in horror at the situation. The MR exemption has not been or caused a safety issue that I can find. Legitimate FAC holders have had many more public safety incidents so if it is public safety you are horrified about start restricting FAC holders before the s11 operators.
Point your outrage in the right direction.

FMJ Ranges whilst a bunch of dangerous wannabes were shut down not because of the s11 violations (not many if any of them) but because of their other actions off the range. Their safety on the range and the range construction was an issue for the HSE and local authorities but that can happen on any range with any club that is poorly run and in this case not a consequence of the s11 exemption.

I still can't believe that shooters still want to throw a section of the legitimate shooting community under the bus just because they don't understand the situation or believe the sensationalist (and grossly misrepresented) media reports. It happened after Hungerford and Dunblaine, might happen again after Plymouth. This time it is not even requiring an incident to get us to turn on ourselves.

[Mattnall]

It is also the way the NRA get to hand out their firearms for members to shoot and how HO club members can go participate at competitions away from the home range.

I hadn't considered that but its a very valid point. I believe that NRA affiliated clubs can borrow firearms from the NRA too. Do you know how that is covered? Or does it require one member to be a member of the NRA?

I'm not sure of the mechanics of that, the range office might be the best be for info.

ETA: https://nationalshootingcentre.co.uk/ar ... -for-hire/
Not much info but contact details and pricing.

[hitchphil]

It is also the way the NRA get to hand out their firearms for members to shoot and how HO club members can go participate at competitions away from the home range.

I hadn't considered that but its a very valid point. I believe that NRA affiliated clubs can borrow firearms from the NRA too. Do you know how that is covered? Or does it require one member to be a member of the NRA?

I'm not sure of the mechanics of that, the range office might be the best be for info.

ETA: https://nationalshootingcentre.co.uk/ar ... -for-hire/
Not much info but contact details and pricing.

Affiliated NRA clubs can hire firearms for club use only, at Bisley only, as can full members. NRA is a HO approved club so all full members are members of the same club (but you are asked to register with a sub org called The NRA Shooting Club - no extra charge). So there is some latitude to using each others kit, sharing lanes etc, however I dont know any members that will eg allow their rifle to go home with another member unless they are both members of the same HO approved & affiliated club as well.

[Mattnall]

.... however I dont know any members that will eg allow their rifle to go home with another member unless they are both members of the same HO approved & affiliated club as well.

I think the rifles have to be on the Club's FAC. I believe borrowing rifles from other FAC holders (even club members) will need to have that rifle written on Table 1 of the borrower's FAC.
Not a very practical way of doing things generally.

[Blackstuff]

If it is so easy to buy firearms and ammunition without an FAC on the s11 exemption then why don't more people do it?
The simple answer is it is not as easy as many think. You first need to convince an RFD that you are operating a legitimate MR business or range and try this with the dealership at stake, that is after you somehow manage to set up a business actually operating a range.

Do you know what credentials are required to run a MRR outside of a fixed location/legitimate 'range' set up? I haven't been able to find out from anyone, including the police

I still can't believe that shooters still want to throw a section of the legitimate shooting community under the bus just because they don't understand the situation or believe the sensationalist (and grossly misrepresented) media reports. It happened after Hungerford and Dunblaine, might happen again after Plymouth. This time it is not even requiring an incident to get us to turn on ourselves.

Who has suggested throwing anyone under a bus? If the person running the range can't fork out £70 for a certificate once every 5 years they need to up the price they're charging for use of their equipment. If they wouldn't qualify for a certificate they should have access to firearms, end of.

[MistAgain]

If it is so easy to buy firearms and ammunition without an FAC on the s11 exemption then why don't more people do it?
The simple answer is it is not as easy as many think. You first need to convince an RFD that you are operating a legitimate MR business or range and try this with the dealership at stake, that is after you somehow manage to set up a business actually operating a range.

Do you know what credentials are required to run a MRR outside of a fixed location/legitimate 'range' set up? I haven't been able to find out from anyone, including the police

I still can't believe that shooters still want to throw a section of the legitimate shooting community under the bus just because they don't understand the situation or believe the sensationalist (and grossly misrepresented) media reports. It happened after Hungerford and Dunblaine, might happen again after Plymouth. This time it is not even requiring an incident to get us to turn on ourselves.

Who has suggested throwing anyone under a bus? If the person running the range can't fork out £70 for a certificate once every 5 years they need to up the price they're charging for use of their equipment. If they wouldn't qualify for a certificate they should have access to firearms, end of.

But it is more than £70.00 .
Add at least £50.00 for the doctors letter .
And what if the police want the MMR guns and ammunition to show on the FAC that you have had to obtain .
Will you then have to comply with any requirements that the police insist on .
Many years back there was a very active target rifle club on Merseyside , no shortage of members and they had top equipment for members use .
They operated as a MRR and were afilliated to the NSRA .
The police leaned on the club secretary to get an FAC , and he refused . AS he pointed out , there was no advantage to having an FAC for the club .

Instread of rolling over and waiting for the next kicking from the police and government , every gun club should be setting themselves up as a MRR in addition to their normal club setup .
Just think of how many new members the proper club can attract !.

[Mattnall]

Do you know what credentials are required to run a MRR outside of a fixed location/legitimate 'range' set up? I haven't been able to find out from anyone, including the police

Doesn't have to be a fixed location, you can be a travelling show or set up, much like the trailers that appear at military shows with the range in the back or the pop-up ranges at fairs and (in the recent past) even on the green outside the Pavilion at the Bisley Arms fair. As far as credentials go, you cannot be a prohibited person, insurance is highly recommended, apart from that the running of a range or business is down to you and the courts to decide the legitimacy of and you will have to convince someone who you wish to buy items of that you are a bone fide operator.

Who has suggested throwing anyone under a bus? If the person running the range can't fork out £70 for a certificate once every 5 years they need to up the price they're charging for use of their equipment. If they wouldn't qualify for a certificate they should have access to firearms, end of.

You seem to have answered your own question in the very next sentence. The various comments saying that the horror is justified and that FACs need to be applied for, etc. makes me think that.
The miniature rifle exemption isn't a risk to public safety and hasn't been so, so why is it such an issue for everyone? Why do non-MR users, even other shooters, feel the need to try and restrict or legislate MR further?

[Mattnall]

But it is more than £70.00 .
Add at least £50.00 for the doctors letter .
And what if the police want the MMR guns and ammunition to show on the FAC that you have had to obtain .
Will you then have to comply with any requirements that the police insist on .
Many years back there was a very active target rifle club on Merseyside , no shortage of members and they had top equipment for members use .
They operated as a MRR and were afilliated to the NSRA .
The police leaned on the club secretary to get an FAC , and he refused . AS he pointed out , there was no advantage to having an FAC for the club .

Instread of rolling over and waiting for the next kicking from the police and government , every gun club should be setting themselves up as a MRR in addition to their normal club setup .
Just think of how many new members the proper club can attract !.

But it is not just the licensing that is the issue as most MR operators will have FACs anyway. It is the freedom to operate without the need for 'slots' or ammunition limits that the FAC brings.

The Club (free) FAC was issued to clubs because of similar arguments about not knowing what firearms were out there. This was a blanket license a bit like the SGC is now.
Then 'slots' were introduced similar to the current personal FACs and that was a further restriction.
Now it appears that club FACs are to be charged for.
It is a downward spiral of further control with no benefit to public safety and at a greater and greater cost to shooters, both money and convenience.