New Member looking for a Rifle

[IainWR]

I think you will have difficulty finding any of these as a pure commercial transaction with a significant barrel life at that money.

Swing, being the original four-lock front-locking fast-lock-time design, is now a little less popular than others, and you need to be sure that the one you get is OK - if it's a Mk3 or earlier you need someone that knows, and even the 4s and 5s have their quirks. The next development on that line was the Paramount. This has the problem that the primary extraction is done by a cam machined into the receiver. It either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't you can alleviate the problem but you can never fix it. Then came the various RPAs. Some RPAs actually have scarcity value! There are RPA copies around, the best known being the CG Millennium from NZ - an excellent bit of work. Most recently from the Swing lineage comes the INCH action, which is nevertheless nearly a completely new design (there are very few new ideas in rifle actions so that's saying quite a lot) - you are not going to get one S/H for the money you are considering. Grunigs are not common. Others to consider include the AI, designed in consultation with Malcom Cooper; if you can find one the Shilen - a beautiful, elegant, succesful and uncommon design from the world of benchrest in the 1970s; and the Stolle from the same world but rather newer. The Remington 700 has never been fashionable, though it has a good reputation outside of the TR world. I wouldn't go for the PH 1200 - it is a straight copy of the Mauser '98, and the real thing with a new barrel would be as good (and people these days are almost giving them away).

If you want a really good but inexpensive rifle, can I suggest a Musgrave? They aren't fashionable - two main reasons. They come with a single stage trigger as standard, and because the action mounts extend behind the back of the bolt, they tend to be long in the butt. Not a problem if you are a bloke over about 5' 9", or if you own a saw and are prepared to use it. But they are excellent target actions, and can be had for relatively little money on the secondhand market.

Whatever you buy, do remember that the life of a TR barrel is typically 6000-8000 rounds, and that a new barrel plus fitting plus proof will set you back the thick end of £600 (though there are new challengers in that market). If your barrel is shot out and you don't realise it, you will simply expend a load of ammo wondering why you aren't achieving what you feel you should. You need one of two types of expert to tell you; either a good and unbiased gunsmith, or a world-class shot with handloads tuned to your gun on a good day.

Just my thoughts. I have owned a Mauser, two Swings and an RPA, and I look after 4 Swings, 5 Paramounts, 6 RPAs, 4 Musgraves and 2 Shilens for the RAF TRC. Do post if you want more, or PM to be pointed at an expert (which I definitely am not).

Iain

[saddler]

Yes thank you Mike I do like a tight strap.

Thank Sadler & Ovenpaa,
I think a Parker Hale p14 is not quite what I am looking for. i Shoot a Feinwerkbau with a aluminum stock at 22 and i would like to afford a rifle of the same quality, and Swing, RPA, Grunig may be the kind of rifle I would like to end up with. So I am thinking £1,000 with sights would be a good start as long as it shoots in a straight line, what do you all thing?

Er, who said P14??
The 1200TX is what became the cadet target rifle, the M81 sniper rifle, etc. etc.

[rox]

As Iain points out, Grunig aren’t popular, but they *are* very good, and if you come from a .22 prone background they are a more natural switch. They are most prominent in 300m shooting, where people naturally cross train between 50m and 300m, so similarity across the system is essential. The Grunig aluminium stock is IMHO one of the best available for full-bore rifles; I use the same stock for .22 and for 300m and TR, swapping barrelled actions as required. It keeps the position [nearly] identical and improves the cross training value of each discipline, not to mention saving on very expensive aluminium.

If you are just starting at TR I would seriously hold back from trying to get a top class rifle of a level to match your existing kit. You will learn a lot about what you want and what suits you over time, and making a choice now is unlikely to deliver that optimum solution. TR is absolutely not about having the best kit; it is about technique and learning to deliver the best performance you can produce in the conditions you are handed. A lot of top class shooters are using relatively old gear, because that is what they are used to, and what they have used to climb to the top of the game.

Also, bear in mind that you’ll never know how good a second hand rifle can shoot until you’ve put a new barrel on it, a £600.00 proposition. When you buy it you probably won’t know how far off that expenditure will be, and it won't feel like 'your' rifle until you've done it.

Hi All
I had a chance to shoot 7.62 last year with our full-bore part of our Chichester club and loved it. I have a FAC and am having a 762 added and want to compete this year with my own rifle. I shot 22 for years and am looking forward to the big stuff. I know there is a lot to learn and I hoping to pick up tips from you all. The biggest thing at this time is to find a good rifle, so if anyone knows of any one selling please let me know. I would consider a later Swing, Paramount, Grunig. These are all names others have suggested. Any thoughts or idears would be appreciated.
Chris(Sunalert)

[sunalert]

Thanks Saddler, sorry about the confusion over the 1200TX.

Thank you Iain and Rox that all sounds like very good advice, very helpful and detailed, so It’s starting to look like a Musgrave, and factor in a new barrel unless it can be proved that it had little use. I had a look around for a Musgrave and I have found 3 examples on gunmart and 2 Gunstar ranging from £750 to £1150

If I am shooting all ranges what twist would be best if I went for a new barrel?

[ovenpaa]

1:12 is a good start for 155 grain however you could go to 1:14 depending on your choice of bullet assuming you are not shooting issue ammunition.

[dromia]

Hello!

[Steve E]

hi Sunalert
Iain and Rox have given some excellent advice. As for what barrel to fit as and when you need one, most people who shoot TR are using 1:13 30'' barrels. Some are using what are known as 'tight' barrels which are not true .308 cal. These are nominally .298 bore with a .3065 groove as apposed to true .308 barrels that are .300 bore with .308 groove. The reason for this is that the old issued RG ammunition used a bullet that was often undersize so a tight bore was needed. Now that we are using proper sized bullets more people will move over to the 'correct' .308 barrel. Both of my TR rifles are running tight barrels but they do shoot very well with proper .308 bullets and with RG.
Whatever rifle you decide on, 'try before you buy' is preferable. Its would be a complete pain to find a nice looking rifle, buy it without shooting it and find that you don't get on with it. I have a Paramount that as Iain has said, some have none or little primary extraction. MY has no primary extraction but the rifle fits me, it works so I'll not be getting rid of it. If your club has several Target Rifles or members that do, try as many of them as possible, as they all have their own quirks. Personally I would never buy a second hand rfile that I had not shot.
If you are going to be shooting TR in competitions above club level My personal view is that as a minimum standard go for a Musgrave or Shilen. Mausers, TX1200s and T4s and P14s, whilst good in their day, their day is over and they are best left to those who are shooting in Transitional Rifle matches.

Steve