LBR/LBP and "looking at it"?

[bradaz11]

Sim, what legislation allows you to handle a sec1 rifle or sec2 shotgun, which is not on your ticket, when at a gunshop? as the HO approved gunclub clause wouldn't apply there would it?

[the running man]

Ide also like to know what the legal wording is with my smith 2 shot revolver...sec5 with all the cylinders but now with 4 welded permanently inoperable it's now a sec 1? Where's the logic? Also I thought once sec 5 always sec 5.....

[Sim G]

Sim, what legislation allows you to handle a sec1 rifle or sec2 shotgun, which is not on your ticket, when at a gunshop? as the HO approved gunclub clause wouldn't apply there would it?

As far as a shotgun is concerned, s11(5) Firearms Act 1968 allows;

"A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence."

This allows someone to "borrow" one in a shop etc to look at, heft, snap etc.

With regards to a Home Office approved club, s15(1) Firearms Ammendment Act 1988 states;

"Subject to subsection (4) below, a member of a rifle club approved by the Secretary of State [or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998)] may, without holding a firearm certificate, have in his possession a rifle and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in connection with target shooting."

As a HO approved club member looking at a rifle/muzzle loading pistol from a customer point of view, this is "connected" with target shooting and exempted.

S16(1) of the same Ammendment Act states;

"(1)A person of or over the age of seventeen may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence either of the occupier or of a servant of the occupier if—
(a)the occupier or servant in whose presence it is used holds a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle; and
(b)the borrower’s possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate."

So if you are not a HO approved target shooter but hunter/vermin shooter, this "Estate Licence" section will cover you whilst "shopping".


LBRs, s1 shotguns and long range pistols do not fall into the categories above and so no exemption. However, there must be something somewhere, or did we, those with these guns on our tickets, inadvertently break the law when initially shopping for them....?

[Sim G]

Ide also like to know what the legal wording is with my smith 2 shot revolver...sec5 with all the cylinders but now with 4 welded permanently inoperable it's now a sec 1? Where's the logic? Also I thought once sec 5 always sec 5.....

By virtue of s3 Firearms Ammendment Act 1997;

"The authority of the Secretary of State [F1or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotlnd Act 1998)] is not required by virtue of subsection (1)(aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, or to sell or transfer, a firearm if he is authorised by a firearm certificate to have the firearm in his possession, or to purchase or acquire it, subject to a condition that it is only for use in connection with the humane killing of animals."

[bradaz11]

As far as a shotgun is concerned, s11(5) Firearms Act 1968 allows;

"A person may, without holding a shot gun certificate, borrow a shot gun from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the occupier’s presence."

This allows someone to "borrow" one in a shop etc to look at, heft, snap etc.

With regards to a Home Office approved club, s15(1) Firearms Ammendment Act 1988 states;

"Subject to subsection (4) below, a member of a rifle club approved by the Secretary of State [or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotland Act 1998)] may, without holding a firearm certificate, have in his possession a rifle and ammunition when engaged as a member of the club in connection with target shooting."

As a HO approved club member looking at a rifle/muzzle loading pistol from a customer point of view, this is "connected" with target shooting and exempted.

S16(1) of the same Ammendment Act states;

"(1)A person of or over the age of seventeen may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence either of the occupier or of a servant of the occupier if—
(a)the occupier or servant in whose presence it is used holds a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle; and
(b)the borrower’s possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate."

So if you are not a HO approved target shooter but hunter/vermin shooter, this "Estate Licence" section will cover you whilst "shopping".


LBRs, s1 shotguns and long range pistols do not fall into the categories above and so no exemption. However, there must be something somewhere, or did we, those with these guns on our tickets, inadvertently break the law when initially shopping for them....?

ok, so in essence it is still the HO club clause that lets you shop for a gun, that is a shame, I was hoping that there would be another piece, and it would be this that allows you to.

[the running man]

Ide also like to know what the legal wording is with my smith 2 shot revolver...sec5 with all the cylinders but now with 4 welded permanently inoperable it's now a sec 1? Where's the logic? Also I thought once sec 5 always sec 5.....

By virtue of s3 Firearms Ammendment Act 1997;

"The authority of the Secretary of State [F1or the Scottish Ministers (by virtue of provision made under section 63 of the Scotlnd Act 1998)] is not required by virtue of subsection (1)(aba) of section 5 of the 1968 Act for a person to have in his possession, or to purchase or acquire, or to sell or transfer, a firearm if he is authorised by a firearm certificate to have the firearm in his possession, or to purchase or acquire it, subject to a condition that it is only for use in connection with the humane killing of animals."

Sim g how on earth do you find these things mate?

[Sim G]

Well, it doesn't look like there is a straight forward answer! My FA dept mumbled and said they'd get an FEO to call me.... I know they don't know and several RFDs I know hadn't previously given it thought.

The best answer I can come up with, unless of course there is a Home Office instruction/Rule or Regulation hidden somewhere is that to be lawfully in possession of a LBR/LBP, s1 shotgun or Long Range Pistol when looking to purchase, is that you need a vacation slot on your FAC that authorises you to be in possession of that calibre and category of firearm. Once you decide you don't wish to purchase it, you just return it to the vendor as the transfer was not completed and table 1 of your certificate not filled out.

If you don't have that authority to possess by virtue of your FAC during that interim time before transfer and or return to vendor, I can't see how you would otherwise be in lawful possession. I'm more than willing to be proved wrong on this....

What an utter debacle. We desperately need a new, consolidated firearms act, but I fear the outcome of that!

[bigfathairybiker]

I think that too many people get confused with the legal definition of the word "possess" ( applogies for spelling) and what you think it means.

When I hold something in my hands , I am holding it , I do not possess it.
Possesion implys ownership.

Eg: if i let someone without a FAC hold my FAC cert , he does not possess a FAC , he is holding one.

Mark

[Sim G]

Sorry Mark, you're not quite right.

Possession in legal terms and has two distinct elements. The mental element and the practical element. The practical element is broader than the actual physical possession and a person can be in possession of a firearm in a house or car even if they are not present! Having custody or control of a firearm at that particular moment of examining or testing a firearm, would put you in possession. Ownership has absolutely nothing to do with it. Two people can actually posses at the same time.

Read V Donovan 1947, Price V DPP 1996, Sulivan V Earl of Caithness 1976, refers.

[bigfathairybiker]

So, basically if I touch any firearm which is not on my licence I am in possesion of it.
Which would mean I could not hold a gun in a shop until its details have been entered on my licence.
And no Rfd would enter details on your fac until you parted with some money.

This is confusing stuff.

Also, as you mentioned, you dont even need to be holding a firearm to be in possesion, so if a friend popped round whilst I had my rifle out for cleaning, he would also be in possession of it and would be breaking the law!!!

Mark